From: "Jorge Timón" <jtimon@jtimon•cc>
To: Mike Hearn <hearn@vinumeris•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Let's deploy BIP65 CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY!
Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2015 17:33:30 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CABm2gDpgpRg9U5ToNM98pQgz8VRwT8o817zrpJgOj06PwySk_Q@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CA+w+GKS-AZGBSwuN1dgEs6wa-R=jHE0fmfmQ0TL9Cw9b6L71UQ@mail.gmail.com>
On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Mike Hearn <hearn@vinumeris•com> wrote:
> Hi Jorge,
>
> I'm glad we seem to be reaching agreement that hard forks aren't so bad
> really and can even have advantages. It seems the remaining area of
> disagreement is this rollout specifically.
>>
>> a non-upgraded full node and an upgraded full will converge on what they
>> see: "the most-work valid chain" will be the same for both.
>
> Indeed it will, but the point of fully verifying is to not converge with the
> miner majority, if something goes wrong and they aren't following the same
> rules as you. Defining "work" as "converge with miner majority" is fine for
> SPV wallets and a correct or at least reasonable definition. But not for
> fully verifying nodes, where non-convergence is an explicit design goal!
> That's the only thing that stops miners awarding themselves infinite free
> money!
As Greg explained to you repeatedly, a softfork won't cause a
non-upgraded full node to start accepting blocks that create more
subsidy than is valid.
It's only the new rule (in this case, BIP65) that they won't validate.
That's very different security from an SPV node, and as Greg also
explained, SPV nodes could be much more secure than bitcoinj nodes
(they could, for example, validate the coinbase transaction of every
block).
If a non-upgraded node it's not a "full node" for you, that's fine,
but it is for everyone else. So please stop confusing other people.
Assuming the majority of the hashrate upgraded, there's almost no risk
for non-upgraded full nodes.
>> Are you going to produce a bip65 hardfork alternative to try to convince
>> people of its advantages over bip65 (it is not clear to me how you include a
>> new script operand via hardfork)?
>
> No, I'm focused on the block size issue right now. I don't think there's
> much point in improving the block chain protocol if most users are going to
> be unable to use it. But the modification is simple, right? You just replace
> this bit:
>
> CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY redefines the existing NOP2 opcode
>
> with this
>
> CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY defines a new opcode (0xc0)
>
> and that's it. The section upgrade and testing plan only says TBD so that
> part doesn't even need to change at all, as it's not written yet.
Thanks, I wasn't aware that there was room for new opcodes that
weren't noops already.
Can you give an example of an attack in which a non-upgraded full node
wallet is defrauded with BIP65 but could not with the hardfork
alternative (that nobody seems to be willing to implement)?
Please, don't assume 0 confirmation transactions or similar
unreasonable assumptions (ie see section 11 "Calculations" of the
Bitcoin whitepaper).
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-10-05 15:33 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 93+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-10-02 1:57 NotMike Hearn
2015-10-02 2:12 ` GC
2015-10-05 10:59 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-05 11:23 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-10-05 11:28 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-05 12:04 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 12:08 ` Clément Elbaz
2015-10-05 12:16 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 12:29 ` Clément Elbaz
2015-10-05 15:42 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 12:10 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-05 15:33 ` Jorge Timón [this message]
2015-10-05 16:46 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-06 6:20 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-07 6:13 ` Micha Bailey
2015-10-05 13:29 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 13:24 ` Jorge Timón
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2015-09-27 18:50 Peter Todd
2015-09-27 20:26 ` jl2012
2015-09-27 20:27 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-27 20:27 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-09-27 20:41 ` Btc Drak
2015-09-28 10:10 ` s7r
2015-09-28 10:48 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 11:00 ` Adam Back
2015-09-28 11:40 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 12:20 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-28 12:26 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 12:44 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-28 12:54 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-29 6:17 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-29 12:02 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 14:05 ` Btc Drak
2015-09-28 14:17 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 21:12 ` odinn
2015-09-28 22:16 ` Dave Scotese
2015-09-28 11:04 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-28 12:47 ` Tier Nolan
2015-09-28 13:01 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-09-28 13:28 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 13:43 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-09-28 14:14 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 13:21 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 13:41 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 14:29 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 14:33 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 14:43 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 14:51 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 15:05 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 15:38 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 16:52 ` jl2012
2015-09-28 17:14 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 23:17 ` Jorge Timón
2015-09-29 12:07 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-29 13:30 ` Jonathan Toomim (Toomim Bros)
2015-09-29 15:59 ` jl2012
2015-09-29 19:54 ` odinn
2015-09-29 18:31 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-09-30 17:11 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 17:58 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-01 14:23 ` Tom Harding
2015-09-30 18:15 ` Adam Back
2015-09-30 19:26 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-09-30 19:56 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 20:37 ` Jorge Timón
2015-09-30 21:06 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 22:14 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-01 0:11 ` Jorge Timón
2015-09-30 22:17 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-09-30 23:25 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-09-30 20:15 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-09-30 21:01 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 22:59 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-10-07 15:00 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-07 15:46 ` Jonathan Toomim (Toomim Bros)
2015-10-07 16:02 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-10-07 16:25 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-10-07 16:26 ` Jonathan Toomim (Toomim Bros)
2015-10-07 16:38 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-10 7:23 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-12 7:02 ` digitsu
2015-10-12 16:33 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-12 17:06 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-13 0:08 ` digitsu
2015-09-29 20:03 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan
2015-09-30 4:05 ` Rusty Russell
2015-09-30 6:19 ` Adam Back
2015-09-30 12:30 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 15:55 ` Jorge Timón
2015-09-30 19:17 ` John Winslow
2015-10-01 0:06 ` Rusty Russell
2015-09-30 17:14 ` Adam Back
2015-10-01 0:04 ` Rusty Russell
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=CABm2gDpgpRg9U5ToNM98pQgz8VRwT8o817zrpJgOj06PwySk_Q@mail.gmail.com \
--to=jtimon@jtimon$(echo .)cc \
--cc=bitcoin-dev@lists$(echo .)linuxfoundation.org \
--cc=hearn@vinumeris$(echo .)com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox