Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

From: "Jorge Timón" <jtimon@jtimon•cc>
To: Billy Tetrud <billy.tetrud@gmail•com>,
	 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 10:22:41 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CABm2gDr6QyVUPFODRBBvWY-sukX+k9-kLKpjPnwwaQqejQL88w@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAGpPWDYWm4Y8ZcuEdm_7qhGzG3KRv0s=opT0RnVa_fM3SamTJg@mail.gmail.com>

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Who do you mean by "the non technical folks"?
You don't include alicexbt or yourself as a "technical folk", do you?

On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 8:38 AM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Wholeheartedly agree with you alicexbt. There are no technical issues that
> have been shown that I'm aware of. Once the non-technical folks have time
> to discuss it and realize that, I'm hopeful things will move forward.
> Perhaps we can learn from this and figure out how to better catch the
> attention of the larger bitcoin community  for important changes without
> alarming them.
>
> On Sun, Jun 5, 2022 at 2:48 AM alicexbt via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jorge,
>>
>>
>> Misinformation is false or inaccurate information, especially that which
>> is deliberately intended to deceive. A combination of 'misleading' and
>> 'information'. Here are a few examples and I am sure I missed a lot of
>> others but its difficult for me to keep a track of everything:
>>
>>
>> 1) Sapio is open source and everything mentioned in tweet is false:
>> https://web.archive.org/web/20220503050140/https://twitter.com/coinableS/status/1521354192434073602
>>
>> 2) Personal attacks on author of BIP 119 with false information:
>> https://nitter.net/s3cp256k1/status/1521238634111770624
>>
>> 3) Andreas Antonopoulos shared false things about CTV and explained by
>> Ryan in this email:
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-May/020414.html
>>
>> 4) Misleading things shared in these emails by Michael Folkson:
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019728.html
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020235.html
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020286.html
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020343.html
>>
>>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020386.html
>>
>> 5) Peter Todd and Zac shared misleading things about BIP 119, bitcoin and
>> L2. I replied in this email:
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020322.html
>>
>> 6) Social media influencers like Peter McCormack tweeted they don't
>> understand BIP 119 but its an attack (this was even retweeted by developers
>> like Peter Todd):
>> https://nitter.net/PeterMcCormack/status/1521253840963653632
>>
>> 7) Some misconceptions about BIP 119 cleared by Bitcoin Magazine:
>> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/what-is-bip-119-bitcoin-controversy-explained
>>
>> 8) There were lies and misinformation about BIP 119 on social media
>> according to this Bitcoin Magazine article:
>> https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/analyzing-bip119-and-the-controversy-surrounding-it
>>
>> 9) John Carvalho tweeting false things:
>>
>>     https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1468599535538745359
>>
>>     https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1522652884218822658
>>
>>     https://nitter.net/BitcoinErrorLog/status/1442554615967354880
>>
>>     https://nitter.net/search?q=MIT%20(from%3ABitcoinErrorLog)
>>
>> 10) Greg Maxwell responding to misinformation related to BIP 119 but
>> adding false things in the comments:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/uim560/bip_119/i7dhfpb/
>>
>>
>> I am not surprised by your email but it would be better if the people who
>> are interested in reviewing BIP 119 could raise the bar and not share
>> misleading information.
>>
>>
>> /dev/fd0
>>
>>
>> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>> ------- Original Message -------
>> On Sunday, June 5th, 2022 at 12:12 AM, Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon•cc>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> > "Some people say CTV is contentious, but they're spreading
>> misinformation"? Really? Seriously?Come on, guys, we can do better than
>> nina jankovich and the "fact checkers".
>> > Please, rise the bar.
>> > On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 19:44 alicexbt via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Note: This email is an opinion and not an attack on bitcoin
>> > >
>> > > Covenants on bitcoin will eventually be implemented with a soft fork.
>> CTV is the easiest and best possible way OP_TX looks good as well. Apart
>> from the technical merits, covenants will improve a few other things:
>> > >
>> > > - Developers can build interesting projects with real demand in
>> market.
>> > > - Students learn Sapio and not just solidity.
>> > > - Better tooling could be available for application developers.
>> > > - Maybe we see bitcoin developer hackathons in different countries.
>> > > - Demand for block space might increase, it wont be just exchanges
>> and coinjoin.
>> > > - Funding of bitcoin developers and projects might improve. Wont need
>> to convince a few people for grants.
>> > >
>> > > **Why covenants are not contentious?**
>> > >
>> > > Some people may write paragraphs about CTV being contentious, spread
>> misinformation and do all types of drama, politics etc. on social media but
>> there are zero technical NACKs for CTV. We have discussed other covenant
>> proposals in detail on mailing list and IRC meetings with an open minded
>> approach.
>> > >
>> > > All the developers that participated in the discussion are either
>> okay with CTV or OP_TX or covenants in general.
>> > >
>> > > **How and when should covenants be implemented in Bitcoin?**
>> > >
>> > > I don't think we should wait for years anticipating a proposal that
>> everyone will agree on or argue for years to pretend changes are hard in
>> Bitcoin. We should improve the review process for soft fork BIPs and share
>> honest opinions with agreement, disagreement on technical merits.
>> > >
>> > > I prefer BIP 8 or improved BIP 8 for soft fork but I won't mind
>> anything else being used if that improves Bitcoin. Covenants implemented in
>> Bitcoin before the next cycle would provide opportunity for developers to
>> build interesting things during the bear market. Ossification supporters
>> also believe there is some window that will close soon, maybe doing changes
>> considering each case individually will be a better approach. CTV is not a
>> rushed soft fork, less people followed the research and it was not
>> mentioned on social media repeatedly by the respected developers like other
>> soft forks.
>> > >
>> > > /dev/fd0
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> > > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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