From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com>
To: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 04:06:13 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CABr1YTefbYqqtx0fSm_GBASxE2Za9EGWOPM2A5X4PRxbVemyiw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CABr1YTcr9C4uoXFfTJ6BEGHaw1a3dV_J=SE=fZbbpZRdTtD8tw@mail.gmail.com>
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3405 bytes --]
I should note that my proposal does require a change to the consensus
rules...but getting bitcoin to scale will require this no matter what.
- Eric Lombrozo
On Feb 22, 2015 3:41 AM, "Eric Lombrozo" <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
> It seems to me we're confusing two completely different motivations for
> double-spending. One is the ability to replace a fee, the other is the
> ability to replace outputs.
>
> If the double-spend were to merely add or remove inputs (but keep at least
> one input in common, of course), it seems fairly safe to assume it's the
> former, a genuine fee replacement. Even allowing for things like coinjoin,
> none of the payees would really care either way.
>
> Conversely, if at least one of the inputs were kept but none of the
> outputs were, we can be confident it's the the latter.
>
> It is possible to build a wallet that always does the former when doing
> fee replacement by using another transaction to create an output with
> exactly the additional desired fee.
>
> If we can clearly distinguish these two cases then the fee replacement
> case can be handled by relaying both and letting miners pick one or the
> other while the output replacement case could be handled by rewarding
> everything to a miner (essentially all outputs are voided...made
> unredeemable...and all inputs are added to coinbase) if the miner includes
> the two conflicting transactions in the same block.
>
> Wouldn't this essentially solve the problem?
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
> On Feb 21, 2015 8:09 PM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon•cc> wrote:
>> > On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com>
>> wrote:
>> >> This isn't some theoretical exercise. Like it or not many use
>> >> insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments. Deploying something
>> >> that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negative
>> >> impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth"
>>
>> > And maybe by maintaining first seen policies we're harming the system
>> > in the long term by encouraging people to widely deploy systems based
>> > on extremely weak assumptions.
>>
>> Lacking a coded, reviewed alternative, that's only a platitude.
>> Widely used 0-conf payments are where we're at today. Simply ceasing
>> the "maintaining [of] first seen policies" alone is simply not a
>> realistic option. The negative impact to today's userbase would be
>> huge.
>>
>> Instant payments need a security upgrade, yes.
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Garzik
>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
>> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more
>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=190641631&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4474 bytes --]
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-02-22 12:06 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 79+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-02-12 6:47 Peter Todd
2015-02-12 7:23 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 7:45 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 8:27 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 8:49 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 9:01 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-15 20:51 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-12 8:16 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 11:58 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 12:23 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 12:49 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 13:02 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 13:44 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:36 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 14:53 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:20 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 15:30 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 13:36 ` Oleg Andreev
2015-02-12 12:52 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 13:18 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 13:45 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 13:52 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:04 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 14:16 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:25 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 23:08 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-12 14:32 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 15:15 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:32 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 15:42 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:54 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 16:57 ` Btc Drak
2015-02-12 17:24 ` Oleg Andreev
2015-02-12 18:11 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 18:37 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-12 19:15 ` Alan Reiner
2015-02-12 19:34 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 19:45 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 19:49 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 19:47 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-12 19:52 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 20:02 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 20:36 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-14 14:47 ` Ross Nicoll
2015-02-12 20:06 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 19:49 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-02-12 20:18 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-13 11:34 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 12:54 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 14:42 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 15:27 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-15 21:25 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-15 21:40 ` Adam Gibson
2015-02-19 8:56 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-21 19:09 ` Jorge Timón
2015-02-21 20:30 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-02-21 22:47 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-22 1:15 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-22 3:25 ` Jorge Timón
2015-02-22 4:06 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-22 11:41 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-22 12:06 ` Eric Lombrozo [this message]
2015-02-22 13:41 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-22 13:53 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-22 23:29 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-24 1:11 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-03-01 17:59 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-03-01 19:05 ` Neil Fincham
2015-03-01 17:44 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-12 16:15 ` Lawrence Nahum
2015-02-12 18:14 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-12 21:40 ` Josh Lehan
2015-02-22 16:36 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-22 17:12 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-22 19:25 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-22 21:50 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-04 4:36 ` [Bitcoin-development] New release of replace-by-fee for Bitcoin Core v0.10.1 Peter Todd
2015-05-05 2:23 ` Kevin Greene
2015-05-23 18:26 ` [Bitcoin-development] Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin Wallet Peter Todd
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=CABr1YTefbYqqtx0fSm_GBASxE2Za9EGWOPM2A5X4PRxbVemyiw@mail.gmail.com \
--to=elombrozo@gmail$(echo .)com \
--cc=bitcoin-development@lists$(echo .)sourceforge.net \
--cc=jgarzik@bitpay$(echo .)com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox