From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com>
To: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 05:41:56 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CABr1YTfZDSpyMLNi2pYORh01f_G3tL0rcw2Zo0m_P4-vjsJfmQ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CABr1YTefbYqqtx0fSm_GBASxE2Za9EGWOPM2A5X4PRxbVemyiw@mail.gmail.com>
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In case it wasn't clear in my earlier post, there's of course a third
possibility - namely, some outputs are kept but not all. Here, it is
generally impossible to tell whether the motivation was fee replacement,
output replacement, or both. My proposal is to always treat these instances
as output replacement and punish the sender. The sender needs to make it
unambiguously clear it's only a fee replacement by creating a new
transaction that produces an output with the desired extra fee and then
adding an input that spends it to the original transaction.
- Eric Lombrozo
On Sunday, February 22, 2015, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail•com> wrote:
> I should note that my proposal does require a change to the consensus
> rules...but getting bitcoin to scale will require this no matter what.
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
> On Feb 22, 2015 3:41 AM, "Eric Lombrozo" <elombrozo@gmail•com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','elombrozo@gmail•com');>> wrote:
>
>> It seems to me we're confusing two completely different motivations for
>> double-spending. One is the ability to replace a fee, the other is the
>> ability to replace outputs.
>>
>> If the double-spend were to merely add or remove inputs (but keep at
>> least one input in common, of course), it seems fairly safe to assume it's
>> the former, a genuine fee replacement. Even allowing for things like
>> coinjoin, none of the payees would really care either way.
>>
>> Conversely, if at least one of the inputs were kept but none of the
>> outputs were, we can be confident it's the the latter.
>>
>> It is possible to build a wallet that always does the former when doing
>> fee replacement by using another transaction to create an output with
>> exactly the additional desired fee.
>>
>> If we can clearly distinguish these two cases then the fee replacement
>> case can be handled by relaying both and letting miners pick one or the
>> other while the output replacement case could be handled by rewarding
>> everything to a miner (essentially all outputs are voided...made
>> unredeemable...and all inputs are added to coinbase) if the miner includes
>> the two conflicting transactions in the same block.
>>
>> Wouldn't this essentially solve the problem?
>>
>> - Eric Lombrozo
>> On Feb 21, 2015 8:09 PM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay•com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jgarzik@bitpay•com');>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon•cc> wrote:
>>> > On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jgarzik@bitpay•com');>> wrote:
>>> >> This isn't some theoretical exercise. Like it or not many use
>>> >> insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments. Deploying something
>>> >> that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negative
>>> >> impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth"
>>>
>>> > And maybe by maintaining first seen policies we're harming the system
>>> > in the long term by encouraging people to widely deploy systems based
>>> > on extremely weak assumptions.
>>>
>>> Lacking a coded, reviewed alternative, that's only a platitude.
>>> Widely used 0-conf payments are where we're at today. Simply ceasing
>>> the "maintaining [of] first seen policies" alone is simply not a
>>> realistic option. The negative impact to today's userbase would be
>>> huge.
>>>
>>> Instant payments need a security upgrade, yes.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jeff Garzik
>>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
>>> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
>>>
>>>
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>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net');>
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>
>>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-02-22 13:42 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 79+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-02-12 6:47 Peter Todd
2015-02-12 7:23 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 7:45 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 8:27 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 8:49 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 9:01 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-15 20:51 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-12 8:16 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 11:58 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 12:23 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 12:49 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 13:02 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 13:44 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:36 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 14:53 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:20 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 15:30 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 13:36 ` Oleg Andreev
2015-02-12 12:52 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 13:18 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 13:45 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 13:52 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:04 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 14:16 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 14:25 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 23:08 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-12 14:32 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 15:15 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:32 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 15:42 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 15:54 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 16:57 ` Btc Drak
2015-02-12 17:24 ` Oleg Andreev
2015-02-12 18:11 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 18:37 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-12 19:15 ` Alan Reiner
2015-02-12 19:34 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 19:45 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 19:49 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 19:47 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-12 19:52 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-02-12 20:02 ` Natanael
2015-02-12 20:36 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-02-14 14:47 ` Ross Nicoll
2015-02-12 20:06 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-12 19:49 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-02-12 20:18 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-13 11:34 ` Mike Hearn
2015-02-12 12:54 ` Tamas Blummer
2015-02-12 14:42 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-02-12 15:27 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-15 21:25 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-15 21:40 ` Adam Gibson
2015-02-19 8:56 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-21 19:09 ` Jorge Timón
2015-02-21 20:30 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-02-21 22:47 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-22 1:15 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-22 3:25 ` Jorge Timón
2015-02-22 4:06 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-02-22 11:41 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-22 12:06 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-22 13:41 ` Eric Lombrozo [this message]
2015-02-22 13:53 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-22 23:29 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-02-24 1:11 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-03-01 17:59 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-03-01 19:05 ` Neil Fincham
2015-03-01 17:44 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2015-02-12 16:15 ` Lawrence Nahum
2015-02-12 18:14 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-12 21:40 ` Josh Lehan
2015-02-22 16:36 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-22 17:12 ` Peter Todd
2015-02-22 19:25 ` Tom Harding
2015-02-22 21:50 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-04 4:36 ` [Bitcoin-development] New release of replace-by-fee for Bitcoin Core v0.10.1 Peter Todd
2015-05-05 2:23 ` Kevin Greene
2015-05-23 18:26 ` [Bitcoin-development] Replace-by-fee v0.10.2 - Serious DoS attack fixed! - Also novel variants of existing attacks w/ Bitcoin XT and Android Bitcoin Wallet Peter Todd
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