From: Dustin Ray <dustinvonsandwich@gmail•com>
To: Agustin Cruz <agustin.cruz@gmail•com>
Cc: Hunter Beast <hunter@surmount•systems>,
Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Proposal for Quantum-Resistant Address Migration Protocol (QRAMP) BIP
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 14:05:47 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAC3UE4KaVVjLGsAvACmh75KkCNZeHJNnk2+FuZOu23YFAyYg5w@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAJDmzYzPGz9Xd=kdaGkkL+r1zh5y1cBHNh7SQXJEzg7YUX--PA@mail.gmail.com>
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I don't disagree personally with most of what you're saying except where
the real catastrophe lies. Id argue it's catastrophic for the value
proposition of a blockchain to effectively seize funds, which is what your
proposal does in case anyone fails to migrate before the deadline.
On the other hand, it's equally catastrophic for digital signatures to be
broken and funds lost in any scenario. So it seems we are staring down two
extremely untenable outcomes, both of which see the fundamental properties
of a blockchain shattered in one way or another.
I hope it doesn't come down to having to choose one or the other. There is
very serious financial harm that will occur in either scenario. I dearly
hope there is a practical technological solution that allows for safe and
fair migration, and in my mind and experience, I don't think we have to
resign ourselves to a zero sum game just yet. But I appreciate your
proposal and the proactive nature of this discussion, it's important to
have these conversations now rather than later.
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 1:50 PM Agustin Cruz <agustin.cruz@gmail•com> wrote:
> Hi Dustin,
>
> My proposal is not about locking down or confiscating funds. It is about
> ensuring that vulnerable pre-P2PKH funds are migrated to quantum-safe
> addresses before any quantum adversary can exploit them. Even though P2PKH
> addresses are secured by hashes that are currently considered safe, relying
> solely on that safety may leave us exposed in the future, especially as
> quantum capabilities continue to evolve. Without a forced migration, we
> risk leaving a significant portion of the coin supply vulnerable. Consider
> the possibility that if we don’t act, any Bitcoin in lost wallets could
> eventually be hacked and put back into circulation. Such a scenario would
> be catastrophic for the network.
>
> I believe that by enforcing a deadline for migration, we provide rightful
> owners with a clear, non-negotiable opportunity to secure their funds. This
> approach is not merely hypothetical. It is a proactive measure that
> addresses the imminent risk of quantum attacks. While turnstile mechanisms
> have been considered and might have merit under certain conditions, I
> remain committed to the idea that a forced migration, with sufficient
> notice and robust safeguards, is both realistic and necessary to protect
> the long-term security of Bitcoin.
>
> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 6:35 PM Dustin Ray <dustinvonsandwich@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>
>> To be clear, the turnstile approach is definitely a forced migration. It
>> just means that instead of permanently confiscating funds and removing them
>> from circulation, you force the rightful owners of those funds to move them
>> into quantum safe addresses, assuming the existence of a hypothetical
>> turnstile mechanism. There's too many hypotheticals with this idea right
>> now to give it any more than a cursory glance, but turnstiles have been
>> built before and could potentially be built again in this scenario.
>>
>> For further clarification, I'm suggesting that we enforce migration of
>> unspent funds in p2pkh addresses because they are already secured by hashes
>> which are currently conjectured to remain safe against a quantum adversary.
>> Pre-p2pkh addresses are probably the most vulnerable but few of these had
>> seen use comparatively and may require confiscation.
>>
>> If your idea is to simply lock down and confiscate any pre-pq safe funds,
>> I resolutely disagree with that decision and I am fairly confident that
>> consensus will fail to materialize around that. What I'm suggesting however
>> is that your idea is realistic and sound if we assume the existence of some
>> mechanism that allows rightful owners of pre-pq funds the opportunity to do
>> nothing except migrate to safe addresses which then resolves the issue.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 1:07 PM Agustin Cruz <agustin.cruz@gmail•com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dustin,
>>>
>>> I remain convinced that a forced migration mechanism—with a clear block
>>> height deadline after which quantum-unsafe funds become unspendable—is the
>>> more robust and secure approach. Here’s why:
>>>
>>> A forced migration approach is unambiguous. By establishing a definitive
>>> deadline, we eliminate the need for an additional transitional transaction
>>> type, thereby reducing complexity and potential attack vectors. Additional
>>> complexity could inadvertently open up new vulnerabilities that a more
>>> straightforward deadline avoids.
>>>
>>> If we don’t enforce a hard migration, any Bitcoin in lost
>>> wallets—including coins in addresses that no longer have active private key
>>> management, such as potentially Satoshi’s—could eventually be compromised
>>> by quantum adversaries. If these coins were hacked and put back into
>>> circulation, the resulting market shock would be catastrophic. The forced
>>> migration mechanism is designed to preempt such a scenario by ensuring that
>>> only quantum-safe funds can be spent once the deadline is reached.
>>>
>>> El mié, 19 de feb de 2025, 5:10 p. m., Dustin Ray <
>>> dustinvonsandwich@gmail•com> escribió:
>>>
>>>> It's worth considering a hypothetical but as of yet unknown middle
>>>> ground solution, again nothing like this exists currently but conceptually
>>>> it would be interesting to explore:
>>>>
>>>> 1. At some block height deemed appropriate, modify consensus so that
>>>> any pre-quantum unspent funds are restricted from being spent as normal.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Develop a new transaction type whose sole purpose is to migrate
>>>> funds from a quantum unsafe address to a safe one.
>>>>
>>>> 3. This new transaction type is a quantum safe digital signature, but
>>>> here's the hypothetical: It is satisfied by developing a mechanism by which
>>>> a private key from a quantum-unsafe scheme can be repurposed as a private
>>>> key for a pq-safe scheme. It may also be possible that since we know the
>>>> hash of the public key, perhaps we can invent some mechanism whereby a
>>>> quantum safe signature is created from an ecdsa private key that directly
>>>> implies knowledge of a secret key that derived the known public key.
>>>>
>>>> In this way, we create a kind of turnstile that can safely transition
>>>> funds from unsafe addresses into safe ones. Such turnstiles have been used
>>>> in blockchains before, a notable example is in the zcash network as part of
>>>> an audit of shielded funds.
>>>>
>>>> There are likely hidden complexities in this idea that may cause it to
>>>> be completely unworkable, but a theoretical transition mechanism both
>>>> prevents a heavy handed confiscation of funds and also prevents funds from
>>>> being stolen and injected back into the supply under illegitimate pretenses.
>>>>
>>>> This only works for p2pkh, anything prior to this is immediately
>>>> vulnerable to key inversion, but Satoshi owns most of those coins as far as
>>>> we know, so confiscating them might not be as controversial.
>>>>
>>>> I'm typing this on my phone so sorry for the lack of detailed
>>>> references. I think the core idea is clear though.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 10:47 AM Agustin Cruz <agustin.cruz@gmail•com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Hunter,
>>>>>
>>>>> I appreciate the work you’re doing on BIP-360 for Anduro. Your point
>>>>> about not “confiscating” old coins and allowing those with quantum
>>>>> capabilities to free them up is certainly a valid one, and I understand the
>>>>> argument that any inflationary impact could be transitory.
>>>>>
>>>>> From my viewpoint, allowing quantum-capable adversaries to reintroduce
>>>>> dormant coins (e.g., Satoshi’s if those keys are lost) could have
>>>>> unintended consequences that go beyond transient inflation. It could
>>>>> fundamentally alter trust in Bitcoin’s fixed supply and disrupt economic
>>>>> assumptions built around the current distribution of coins. While some
>>>>> might view these dormant coins as “fair game,” their sudden reappearance
>>>>> could cause lasting market shocks and undermine confidence. The goal of a
>>>>> proactive migration is to close the door on such a scenario before it
>>>>> becomes imminent.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree that Q-day won’t necessarily be a single, catastrophic moment.
>>>>> It will likely be gradual and subtle, giving the network some time to
>>>>> adapt. That said, one challenge is ensuring we don’t find ourselves in an
>>>>> emergency scramble the moment a capable quantum machine appears. A forced
>>>>> or proactive migration is an admittedly strong measure, but it attempts to
>>>>> address the scenario where a slow, creeping capability becomes a sudden
>>>>> attack vector once it matures. In that sense, “rushing” isn’t ideal, but
>>>>> neither is waiting until the threat is undeniably present.
>>>>>
>>>>> El mié, 19 de feb de 2025, 1:31 p. m., Hunter Beast
>>>>> <hunter@surmount•systems> escribió:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't see why old coins should be confiscated. The better option is
>>>>>> to let those with quantum computers free up old coins. While this might
>>>>>> have an inflationary impact on bitcoin's price, to use a turn of phrase,
>>>>>> the inflation is transitory. Those with low time preference should support
>>>>>> returning lost coins to circulation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, I don't see the urgency, considering the majority of coins are
>>>>>> in either P2PKH, P2WPKH, P2SH, and P2WSH addresses. If PQC signatures
>>>>>> aren't added, such as with BIP-360, there will be some concern around long
>>>>>> exposure attacks on P2TR coins. For large amounts, it would be smart to
>>>>>> modify wallets to support broadcasting transactions to private mempool
>>>>>> services such as Slipstream, to mitigate short exposure attacks. Those will
>>>>>> also be rarer early on since a CRQC capable of a long exposure attack is
>>>>>> much simpler than one capable of pulling off a short exposure attack
>>>>>> against a transaction in the mempool.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bitcoin's Q-day likely won't be sudden and obvious. It will also take
>>>>>> time to coordinate a soft fork activation. This shouldn't be rushed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the interest of transparency, it's worth mentioning that I'm
>>>>>> working on a BIP-360 implementation for Anduro. Both Anduro and Slipstream
>>>>>> are MARA services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 11, 2025 at 9:01:51 PM UTC-7 Agustin Cruz wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Dustin:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I understand that the proposal is an extraordinary ask—it would
>>>>>>> indeed void a non-trivial part of the coin supply if users do not migrate
>>>>>>> in time, and under normal circumstances, many would argue that unused P2PKH
>>>>>>> funds are safe from a quantum adversary. However, the intent here is to be
>>>>>>> proactive rather than reactive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The concern isn’t solely about funds in active wallets. Consider
>>>>>>> that if we don’t implement a proactive migration, any Bitcoin in lost
>>>>>>> wallets—including, hypothetically, Satoshi’s if he is not alive—will remain
>>>>>>> vulnerable. In the event of a quantum breakthrough, those coins could be
>>>>>>> hacked and put back into circulation. Such an outcome would not only
>>>>>>> disrupt the balance of supply but could also undermine the trust and
>>>>>>> security that Bitcoin has built over decades. In short, the consequences of
>>>>>>> a reactive measure in a quantum emergency could be far more catastrophic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> While I agree that a forced migration during an active quantum
>>>>>>> attack scenario might be more acceptable (since funds would likely be
>>>>>>> considered lost anyway), waiting until such an emergency arises leaves us
>>>>>>> with little margin for error. By enforcing a migration now, we create a
>>>>>>> window for the entire community to transition safely—assuming we set the
>>>>>>> deadline generously and provide ample notifications, auto-migration tools,
>>>>>>> and, if necessary, emergency extensions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> El mar, 11 de feb de 2025, 9:48 p. m., Dustin Ray <
>>>>>>> dustinvo...@gmail•com> escribió:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think youre going to have a tough time getting consensus on this
>>>>>>>> proposal. It is an extraordinary ask of the community to instill a
>>>>>>>> change that will essentially void out a non-trivial part of the coin
>>>>>>>> supply, especially when funds behind unused P2PKH addresses are at
>>>>>>>> this point considered safe from a quantum adversary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my opinion, where parts of this proposal make sense is in a
>>>>>>>> quantum
>>>>>>>> emergency in which an adversary is actively extracting private keys
>>>>>>>> from known public keys and a transition must be made quickly and
>>>>>>>> decisively. In that case, we might as well consider funds to be lost
>>>>>>>> anyways. In any other scenario prior to this hypothetical emergency
>>>>>>>> however, I have serious doubts that the community is going to
>>>>>>>> consent
>>>>>>>> to this proposal as it stands.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:37 PM Agustin Cruz <agusti...@gmail•com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Hi Dustin
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > To clarify, the intent behind making legacy funds unspendable
>>>>>>>> after a certain block height is indeed a hard security measure—designed to
>>>>>>>> mitigate the potentially catastrophic risk posed by quantum attacks on
>>>>>>>> ECDSA. The idea is to force a proactive migration of funds to
>>>>>>>> quantum-resistant addresses before quantum computers become capable of
>>>>>>>> compromising the current cryptography.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > The migration window is intended to be sufficiently long
>>>>>>>> (determined by both block height and community input) to provide ample time
>>>>>>>> for users and service providers to transition.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > El mar, 11 de feb de 2025, 9:15 p. m., Dustin Ray <
>>>>>>>> dustinvo...@gmail•com> escribió:
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> Right off the bat I notice you are proposing that legacy funds
>>>>>>>> become unspendable after a certain block height which immediately raises
>>>>>>>> serious problems. A migration to quantum hard addresses in this manner
>>>>>>>> would cause serious financial damage to anyone holding legacy funds, if I
>>>>>>>> understand your proposal correctly.
>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>> >> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 4:10 PM Agustin Cruz <
>>>>>>>> agusti...@gmail•com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Dear Bitcoin Developers,
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> I am writing to share my proposal for a new Bitcoin Improvement
>>>>>>>> Proposal (BIP) titled Quantum-Resistant Address Migration Protocol (QRAMP).
>>>>>>>> The goal of this proposal is to safeguard Bitcoin against potential future
>>>>>>>> quantum attacks by enforcing a mandatory migration period for funds held in
>>>>>>>> legacy Bitcoin addresses (secured by ECDSA) to quantum-resistant addresses.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> The proposal outlines:
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Reducing Vulnerabilities: Transitioning funds to
>>>>>>>> quantum-resistant schemes preemptively to eliminate the risk posed by
>>>>>>>> quantum attacks on exposed public keys.
>>>>>>>> >>> Enforcing Timelines: A hard migration deadline that forces
>>>>>>>> timely action, rather than relying on a gradual, voluntary migration that
>>>>>>>> might leave many users at risk.
>>>>>>>> >>> Balancing Risks: Weighing the non-trivial risk of funds being
>>>>>>>> permanently locked against the potential catastrophic impact of a quantum
>>>>>>>> attack on Bitcoin’s security.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Additionally, the proposal addresses common criticisms such as
>>>>>>>> the risk of permanent fund loss, uncertain quantum timelines, and the
>>>>>>>> potential for chain splits. It also details backwards compatibility
>>>>>>>> measures, comprehensive security considerations, an extensive suite of test
>>>>>>>> cases, and a reference implementation plan that includes script interpreter
>>>>>>>> changes, wallet software updates, and network monitoring tools.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> For your convenience, I have published the full proposal on my
>>>>>>>> GitHub repository. You can review it at the following link:
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Quantum-Resistant Address Migration Protocol (QRAMP) Proposal
>>>>>>>> on GitHub
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> I welcome your feedback and suggestions and look forward to
>>>>>>>> engaging in a constructive discussion on how best to enhance the security
>>>>>>>> and resilience of the Bitcoin network in the quantum computing era.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Thank you for your time and consideration.
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> Agustin Cruz
>>>>>>>> >>>
>>>>>>>> >>> --
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>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
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>>>>>> To view this discussion visit
>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/f9e233e0-9d87-4e71-9a9f-3310ea242194n%40googlegroups.com
>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/f9e233e0-9d87-4e71-9a9f-3310ea242194n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
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>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAJDmzYz%3D52MGGLE0ZWm5tmfLUAZEo2tYQutHb4sMvjKbayOAHg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>> .
>>>>>
>>>>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-02-21 1:44 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 13+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-02-11 22:36 Agustin Cruz
2025-02-12 0:15 ` Dustin Ray
2025-02-12 0:37 ` Agustin Cruz
2025-02-12 0:47 ` Dustin Ray
2025-02-12 0:54 ` Agustin Cruz
2025-02-19 16:06 ` Hunter Beast
2025-02-19 16:42 ` Agustin Cruz
2025-02-19 20:10 ` Dustin Ray
2025-02-19 21:07 ` Agustin Cruz
2025-02-19 21:35 ` Dustin Ray
2025-02-19 21:49 ` Agustin Cruz
2025-02-19 22:05 ` Dustin Ray [this message]
2025-02-19 17:56 ` Pieter Wuille
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