From: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail•com>
To: Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Unbreaking testnet4
Date: Tue, 6 May 2025 13:48:37 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CACgYNO+fsUtx=F=ZLZVq=FJfrgHv8NnKsjmoVS8LLVU78zjKDw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <afb749b2-bdb8-4b2a-84ec-b703a64ad765n@googlegroups.com>
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> Some believed that resetting alone would discourage the conduct,
I wonder, why many people keep saying "reset", when in practice, the old
network is just "abandoned", and nothing is really "resetted". We would
have a true reset, if a new testnet would lead to the full chain
reorganization of the old chain. And this thing never happened, all
previous testnets were just abandoned, as they were, and there were just
not enough people, willing to keep old networks alive.
> Hard fork in an ultramassive premine
Well, if testnet4 will be "fixed" by doing a hard-fork on top of existing
chain, then it would be equivalent to releasing testnet5 with "premine" of
all testnet4 blocks.
> so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?
Using doublings, instead of halvings, is future-proof. Because then, if
someone will continue using such test network forever, then later, it would
release 21 million coins per block (which would be roughly equivalent to
having a superchain, where you can peg one altcoin per 10 minutes).
> if someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine
wallet should feel feel to sell into it what they can
In practice, trading will start, when the first version of the official
wallet will be released. It was the case in testnet4: when it was possible
to mine new coins, only when you created your own binary from the source
code, then there were only devs, and some skilled users. However, when it
was officially supported in a new Core version, then it was quickly listed
on centralized exchanges, and a lot of people dumped all of their test
coins, and walked away with real BTCs.
> the custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin
development, but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just another
reset
Which means, that Bitcoin developers will turn into altcoin developers,
where they will release new altcoins called "testnets", only to dump all of
them, and get BTCs out of it.
wt., 6 maj 2025 o 01:40 Greg Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> napisał(a):
> On Tuesday, March 18, 2025 at 9:24:49 PM UTC Antoine Poinsot wrote:
>
> Hi,
> Testnet4 was rolled out a year ago to address the shortcomings of
> testnet3. One of those shortcomings was the difficulty reset creating
> havoc. [0] In spite of this a similar rule was adopted for testnet4. [1] As
> a result, testnet4 is similarly creating havoc. [2]
> The goal of testnet is to mimic the Bitcoin mainnet. This is why it is
> useful to have in addition to a more control testing environment such as
> Signet.
> The given rationale for a difficulty reset was to let developers
> occasionally mine blocks on their laptop. But you cannot have your cake and
> eat it too: either the network is permissionless (PoW) or you assign
> identities and privileges to some (Signet). By trying to do both at the
> same time testnet4 created a loophole for abuse. As a result it failed on
> both count: it neither mimics mainnet nor allows developers to mine active
> blocks on their laptop.
> I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from testnet4
> through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. I picked a date well in the
> future to minimize disruption. This leaves enough time for a patch to be
> reviewed, merged, included in the next major Bitcoin Core release,
> backported to previous releases and adopted by the infrastructure running
> on testnet4. That should be enough for a test network.
>
>
> Part of the root cause is violations of the gentleman's agreement to not
> trade testnet coins for money, this results in predictable chaos with
> people sniping the low difficulty blocks. Some believed that resetting
> alone would discourage the conduct, but even if it had (it hadn't people
> are selling them now) it was still likely that people would hoard up coins
> just in case they became tradable in the future.
>
> There is a simple fix for this which doesn't result in an operating
> difference from Bitcoin, just an economic one. Hard fork in an
> ultramassive premine, as large as possible but what stays with existing
> value overflow logic. (so maybe an additional 21 million testnet btc?).
>
> This also resolves the 'actual developers can't get coins problem' and if
> someone starts trading tnbct for money, whomever has the premine wallet
> should feel feel to sell into it what they can. Once they run out of coins
> it'll be time for another testnet reset.
>
> It may just not be possible to prevent degens from trading tn coins for
> money, -- I mean consider the altcoins that some people spend money on :),
> there is basically no low bar on how crappy you can make a cryptocurrency
> where some scammer won't try to sell it to some fool. But what can't be
> prevented can at least be turned into a benefit.
>
> Compared to things like just rigging the subsidy to continue forever--
> that's a bigger consensus change compared to bitcoin, and I think it
> doesn't have the right incentive surface... some of the most popular
> altcoins have endless inflation and people still use them. Instead you
> want the failure mode to be "if you do trade this for money, most of the
> profits end up going to support a developer or development, rather than
> whatever jerk decided to trick people into paying for it". :)
>
> Feel free to suggest yourself as the custodian of the premine. Or it
> could be some anonymous party if there is a concern that they'll be
> pestered for handouts. There should be a general expectation that the
> custodian of the premine will use it for the betterment of Bitcoin
> development, but if it's found that they're not-- solution is just another
> reset. :)
>
>
>
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prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-05-06 15:25 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 26+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-03-18 14:29 [bitcoindev] " 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-03-18 21:34 ` Melvin Carvalho
2025-03-19 7:01 ` [bitcoindev] " Garlo Nicon
2025-03-19 7:56 ` [bitcoindev] " Sjors Provoost
2025-03-19 8:43 ` Garlo Nicon
2025-03-19 8:32 ` Sjors Provoost
2025-03-19 9:11 ` Melvin Carvalho
2025-03-19 17:03 ` bitcoin-dev-ml.void867 via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-03-20 18:58 ` Melvin Carvalho
2025-03-21 21:20 ` Murch
2025-03-24 7:00 ` Garlo Nicon
2025-03-31 7:32 ` Saint Wenhao
2025-03-24 12:25 ` Murch
2025-03-24 13:57 ` 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-04-27 11:44 ` Saint Wenhao
2025-04-27 22:49 ` Jameson Lopp
2025-04-28 6:11 ` Saint Wenhao
2025-04-28 10:45 ` Jameson Lopp
2025-04-28 11:59 ` 'emsit' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List
2025-04-28 12:47 ` Sjors Provoost
2025-04-28 13:33 ` Saint Wenhao
2025-04-28 18:15 ` Saint Wenhao
2025-04-28 18:50 ` Sjors Provoost
[not found] ` <20250428110655.D4A1C7C0AE9@smtp.postman.i2p>
2025-04-28 11:48 ` pithosian
2025-05-05 22:25 ` [bitcoindev] " Greg Maxwell
2025-05-06 11:48 ` Saint Wenhao [this message]
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