* [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
@ 2015-05-04 5:07 Peter Todd
2015-05-05 0:54 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 1:35 ` Rusty Russell
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-05-04 5:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
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Matt Corallo brought up¹ the issue of OP_NOP scarcity on the mempool
only CLTV pull-req²:
"I like merging this, but doing both CLTV things in one swoop would be
really nice. Certainly if we're gonna use one of the precious few
OP_NOPs we have we might as well make it more flexible."
I have two lines of thought on this:
1) We're going to end up with a Script v2.0 reasonably soon, probably
based on Russel O'Connor and Pieter Wuille's Merkelized Abstract Syntax
Tree³ idea. This needs at most a single OP_NOPx to implement and mostly
removes the scarcity of upgradable NOP's.
2) Similarly in script v1.0 even if we do use up all ten OP_NOPx's, the
logical thing to do is implement an <actual opcode #> OP_EXTENDED.
3) It's not clear what form a relative CLTV will actually take; the BIP
itself proposes a OP_PREVOUT_HEIGHT_VERIFY/OP_PREVOUT_DATA along with
OP_ADD, with any opcode accessing non-reorg-safe prevout info being made
unavailable until the coinbase maturity period has passed for
soft-fork safeness.
That said, if people have strong feelings about this, I would be willing
to make OP_CLTV work as follows:
<nLockTime> 1 OP_CLTV
Where the 1 selects absolute mode, and all others act as OP_NOP's. A
future relative CLTV could then be a future soft-fork implemented as
follows:
<relative nLockTime> 2 OP_CLTV
On the bad side it'd be two or three days of work to rewrite all the
existing tests and example code and update the BIP, and (slightly) gets
us away from the well-tested existing implementation. It also may
complicate the codebase compared to sticking with just doing a Script
v2.0, with the additional execution environment data required for v2.0
scripts cleanly separated out. But all in all, the above isn't too big
of a deal.
Interested in your thoughts.
1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5496#issuecomment-98568239
2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5496
3) http://css.csail.mit.edu/6.858/2014/projects/jlrubin-mnaik-nityas.pdf
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-04 5:07 [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans? Peter Todd
@ 2015-05-05 0:54 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-09 9:12 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 1:35 ` Rusty Russell
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Btc Drak @ 2015-05-05 0:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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On Mon, May 4, 2015 at 6:07 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> Matt Corallo brought up¹ the issue of OP_NOP scarcity on the mempool
> only CLTV pull-req²:
>
> "I like merging this, but doing both CLTV things in one swoop would be
> really nice. Certainly if we're gonna use one of the precious few
> OP_NOPs we have we might as well make it more flexible."
>
> [snip]
> That said, if people have strong feelings about this, I would be willing
> to make OP_CLTV work as follows:
>
> <nLockTime> 1 OP_CLTV
>
> Where the 1 selects absolute mode, and all others act as OP_NOP's. A
> future relative CLTV could then be a future soft-fork implemented as
> follows:
>
> <relative nLockTime> 2 OP_CLTV
>
> On the bad side it'd be two or three days of work to rewrite all the
> existing tests and example code and update the BIP, and (slightly) gets
> us away from the well-tested existing implementation. It also may
> complicate the codebase compared to sticking with just doing a Script
> v2.0, with the additional execution environment data required for v2.0
> scripts cleanly separated out. But all in all, the above isn't too big
> of a deal.
Adding a parameter to OP_CLTV makes it much more flexible and is the most
economic use of precious NOPs.
The extra time required is ok and it would be good to make this change to
the PR in time for the feature freeze.
Drak
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-05 0:54 ` Btc Drak
@ 2015-05-09 9:12 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-12 19:16 ` Jorge Timón
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-05-09 9:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Btc Drak; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 01:54:33AM +0100, Btc Drak wrote:
> > That said, if people have strong feelings about this, I would be willing
> > to make OP_CLTV work as follows:
> >
> > <nLockTime> 1 OP_CLTV
> >
> > Where the 1 selects absolute mode, and all others act as OP_NOP's. A
> > future relative CLTV could then be a future soft-fork implemented as
> > follows:
> >
> > <relative nLockTime> 2 OP_CLTV
> >
> > On the bad side it'd be two or three days of work to rewrite all the
> > existing tests and example code and update the BIP, and (slightly) gets
> > us away from the well-tested existing implementation. It also may
> > complicate the codebase compared to sticking with just doing a Script
> > v2.0, with the additional execution environment data required for v2.0
> > scripts cleanly separated out. But all in all, the above isn't too big
> > of a deal.
>
>
> Adding a parameter to OP_CLTV makes it much more flexible and is the most
> economic use of precious NOPs.
> The extra time required is ok and it would be good to make this change to
> the PR in time for the feature freeze.
Done!
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5496#issuecomment-100454263
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-09 9:12 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-05-12 19:16 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-12 19:23 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-05-12 19:30 ` Btc Drak
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Jorge Timón @ 2015-05-12 19:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
This saves us ocodes for later but it's uglier and produces slightly
bigger scripts.
If we're convinced it's worth it, seems like the right way to do it,
and certainly cltv and rclv/op_maturity are related.
But let's not forget that we can always use this same trick with the
last opcode to get 2^64 brand new opcodes.
So I'm not convinced at all on whether we want #5496 or #6124.
But it would be nice to decide and stop blocking this.
On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 01:54:33AM +0100, Btc Drak wrote:
>> > That said, if people have strong feelings about this, I would be willing
>> > to make OP_CLTV work as follows:
>> >
>> > <nLockTime> 1 OP_CLTV
>> >
>> > Where the 1 selects absolute mode, and all others act as OP_NOP's. A
>> > future relative CLTV could then be a future soft-fork implemented as
>> > follows:
>> >
>> > <relative nLockTime> 2 OP_CLTV
>> >
>> > On the bad side it'd be two or three days of work to rewrite all the
>> > existing tests and example code and update the BIP, and (slightly) gets
>> > us away from the well-tested existing implementation. It also may
>> > complicate the codebase compared to sticking with just doing a Script
>> > v2.0, with the additional execution environment data required for v2.0
>> > scripts cleanly separated out. But all in all, the above isn't too big
>> > of a deal.
>>
>>
>> Adding a parameter to OP_CLTV makes it much more flexible and is the most
>> economic use of precious NOPs.
>> The extra time required is ok and it would be good to make this change to
>> the PR in time for the feature freeze.
>
> Done!
>
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5496#issuecomment-100454263
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 000000000000000012c438a597ad15df697888be579f4f818a30517cd60fbdc8
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
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> _______________________________________________
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> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-12 19:16 ` Jorge Timón
@ 2015-05-12 19:23 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-05-12 19:30 ` Btc Drak
1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2015-05-12 19:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jorge Timón; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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I have no strong opinion, but a slight preference for separate opcodes.
Reason: given the current progress, they'll likely be deployed
independently, and maybe the end result is not something that cleanly fits
the current CLTV argument structure.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-12 19:16 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-12 19:23 ` Pieter Wuille
@ 2015-05-12 19:30 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-12 20:38 ` Luke Dashjr
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Btc Drak @ 2015-05-12 19:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jorge Timón; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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Gavin and @NicolasDorier have a point: If there isn't actually scarcity of
NOPs because OP_NOP10 could become <type> OP_EX (if we run out), it makes
sense to chose the original unparameterised CLTV version #6124 which also
has been better tested. It's cleaner, more readable and results in a
slightly smaller script which has also got to be a plus.
On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon•cc> wrote:
> This saves us ocodes for later but it's uglier and produces slightly
> bigger scripts.
> If we're convinced it's worth it, seems like the right way to do it,
> and certainly cltv and rclv/op_maturity are related.
> But let's not forget that we can always use this same trick with the
> last opcode to get 2^64 brand new opcodes.
> So I'm not convinced at all on whether we want #5496 or #6124.
> But it would be nice to decide and stop blocking this.
>
> On Sat, May 9, 2015 at 11:12 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> > On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 01:54:33AM +0100, Btc Drak wrote:
> >> > That said, if people have strong feelings about this, I would be
> willing
> >> > to make OP_CLTV work as follows:
> >> >
> >> > <nLockTime> 1 OP_CLTV
> >> >
> >> > Where the 1 selects absolute mode, and all others act as OP_NOP's. A
> >> > future relative CLTV could then be a future soft-fork implemented as
> >> > follows:
> >> >
> >> > <relative nLockTime> 2 OP_CLTV
> >> >
> >> > On the bad side it'd be two or three days of work to rewrite all the
> >> > existing tests and example code and update the BIP, and (slightly)
> gets
> >> > us away from the well-tested existing implementation. It also may
> >> > complicate the codebase compared to sticking with just doing a Script
> >> > v2.0, with the additional execution environment data required for v2.0
> >> > scripts cleanly separated out. But all in all, the above isn't too big
> >> > of a deal.
> >>
> >>
> >> Adding a parameter to OP_CLTV makes it much more flexible and is the
> most
> >> economic use of precious NOPs.
> >> The extra time required is ok and it would be good to make this change
> to
> >> the PR in time for the feature freeze.
> >
> > Done!
> >
> > https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5496#issuecomment-100454263
> >
> > --
> > 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> > 000000000000000012c438a597ad15df697888be579f4f818a30517cd60fbdc8
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-12 19:30 ` Btc Drak
@ 2015-05-12 20:38 ` Luke Dashjr
2015-05-12 21:01 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Luke Dashjr @ 2015-05-12 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
It should actually be straightforward to softfork RCLTV in as a negative CLTV.
All nLockTime are >= any negative number, so a negative number makes CLTV a
no-op always. Therefore, it is clean to define negative numbers as relative
later. It's also somewhat obvious to developers, since negative numbers often
imply an offset (eg, negative list indices in Python).
Luke
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-12 20:38 ` Luke Dashjr
@ 2015-05-12 21:01 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-13 0:38 ` Jorge Timón
0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-05-12 21:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Luke Dashjr; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 08:38:27PM +0000, Luke Dashjr wrote:
> It should actually be straightforward to softfork RCLTV in as a negative CLTV.
> All nLockTime are >= any negative number, so a negative number makes CLTV a
> no-op always. Therefore, it is clean to define negative numbers as relative
> later. It's also somewhat obvious to developers, since negative numbers often
> imply an offset (eg, negative list indices in Python).
Doing this makes handling the year 2038 problem a good deal more
complex.
The CLTV codebase specifically fails on negative arguments to avoid any
ambiguity or implementation differences here.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000000e7980aab9c096c46e7f34c43a661c5cb2ea71525ebb8af7
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-12 21:01 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-05-13 0:38 ` Jorge Timón
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Jorge Timón @ 2015-05-13 0:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
I like the reuse with negative numbers more than the current proposal
because it doesn't imply bigger scripts. If all problems that may
arise can be solved, that is.
If we went that route, we would start with the initial CLTV too.
But I don't see many strong arguments in favor of using the current
trick later when we're actually running out of opcodes, just that
"CLTV and RCLTV/op_maturity are semantically related". How
semantically related depends on the final form of RCLTV/op_maturity,
but I don't think anybody wants to block CLTV until RCLTV is ready.
So we could just deploy the initial CLTV (#6124) now and then decide
whether we want to reuse it with negatives for RCLTV or if we use an
independent op.
Can the people that don't like that plan give stronger arguments in
favor of the parametrized version?
I've missed IRC conversations, so I may be missing something...
On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 11:01 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 08:38:27PM +0000, Luke Dashjr wrote:
>> It should actually be straightforward to softfork RCLTV in as a negative CLTV.
>> All nLockTime are >= any negative number, so a negative number makes CLTV a
>> no-op always. Therefore, it is clean to define negative numbers as relative
>> later. It's also somewhat obvious to developers, since negative numbers often
>> imply an offset (eg, negative list indices in Python).
>
> Doing this makes handling the year 2038 problem a good deal more
> complex.
>
> The CLTV codebase specifically fails on negative arguments to avoid any
> ambiguity or implementation differences here.
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 00000000000000000e7980aab9c096c46e7f34c43a661c5cb2ea71525ebb8af7
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-04 5:07 [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans? Peter Todd
2015-05-05 0:54 ` Btc Drak
@ 2015-05-07 1:35 ` Rusty Russell
2015-05-07 17:17 ` Peter Todd
1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Rusty Russell @ 2015-05-07 1:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd, bitcoin-development
Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> writes:
> That said, if people have strong feelings about this, I would be willing
> to make OP_CLTV work as follows:
>
> <nLockTime> 1 OP_CLTV
>
> Where the 1 selects absolute mode, and all others act as OP_NOP's. A
> future relative CLTV could then be a future soft-fork implemented as
> follows:
>
> <relative nLockTime> 2 OP_CLTV
Mildly prefer to put that the other way around.
ie. the OP_NOP1 becomes OP_EXTENSION_PREFIX, the next op defines which
extended opcode it is (must be a push).
Cheers,
Rusty.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans?
2015-05-07 1:35 ` Rusty Russell
@ 2015-05-07 17:17 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-05-07 17:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Rusty Russell; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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On Thu, May 07, 2015 at 11:05:47AM +0930, Rusty Russell wrote:
> Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> writes:
> > That said, if people have strong feelings about this, I would be willing
> > to make OP_CLTV work as follows:
> >
> > <nLockTime> 1 OP_CLTV
> >
> > Where the 1 selects absolute mode, and all others act as OP_NOP's. A
> > future relative CLTV could then be a future soft-fork implemented as
> > follows:
> >
> > <relative nLockTime> 2 OP_CLTV
>
> Mildly prefer to put that the other way around.
>
> ie. the OP_NOP1 becomes OP_EXTENSION_PREFIX, the next op defines which
> extended opcode it is (must be a push).
There's no good way to implement that option - when the OP_NOPx is
executed all that's available to it without a lot of complex work is
what's already been pushed to the stack, not what will be pushed to the
stack in the future.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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2015-05-04 5:07 [Bitcoin-development] CLTV opcode allocation; long-term plans? Peter Todd
2015-05-05 0:54 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-09 9:12 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-12 19:16 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-12 19:23 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-05-12 19:30 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-12 20:38 ` Luke Dashjr
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