Re: [bitcoin-dev] A Modified Version of Luke-jr's Block Size BIP

From: Btc Drak <btcdrak@gmail•com>
To: alp alp <alp.bitcoin@gmail•com>,
	 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A Modified Version of Luke-jr's Block Size BIP
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2017 10:33:52 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CADJgMzsYokNbCuxAwiGi0gdcJvKFrR4A8jx4RjO6CLDwtyT=NA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAMBsKS9O2VXtC+m1w_NbcP96d2Fk+6NqfP3SxHG8Ce2gL=mRBA@mail.gmail.com>

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Agreed, this thread is venturing somewhat out of scope for the list. Please
can we redirect philosophical discussion to another forum/list such as
bitcoin-discuss, which can be found at
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-discuss

Repost of the bitcoin-dev posting guidelines are:

- Posts must concern development of bitcoin protocol.
- Posts should be technical or academic in nature.
- Generally encouraged: patches, notification of pull requests, BIP
proposals, academic paper announcements. And discussions that follow.
- Generally discouraged: shower thoughts, wild speculation, jokes, +1s,
non-technical bitcoin issues, rehashing settled topics without new data,
moderation concerns.
- Detailed patch discussion generally better on a GitHub PR.
- Meta-discussion is better on bitcoin-discuss.

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 8:13 PM, alp alp via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> >Only the majority needs to consent, though what is considered a majority
> varies depending on the context (95%, 75%, 51%). Nowhere does it say
> "everyone needs to agree".
>
> There's a pretty huge gap between 90% and nearly 100%.  90% excluding 10%
> only 7 times results in only 48% of the original base.
>
> >If a small dissenting minority can block all forward progress then
> bitcoin is no longer interesting.
>
> Your definition of forward may be different than other users.
>
> >Is that really the bitcoin that you want to be a part of?
>
> Yes, I chose Bitcoin because it relies on a strictly held consensus
> mechanism and not one that changes on the whims of the majority.  We have
> tens of dozens of political currencies for that.
>
> >When the 1MB cap was implemented it was stated specifically that we
> could increase it when we needed it.  The white paper even talks about
> scaling to huge capacity.  Not sure where you got the idea that we all
> agreed to stay at 1MB forever, I certainly didn't.  It was never stated or
> implied that we could change the coin cap later(please cite if I'm
> mistaken).
>
> The community has not agreed that it is needed at this time.  Perhaps they
> will change their mind at some point in the future.  We have also learned a
> great deal since the publication of the initial whitepaper, such as the
> unstable state without a backlog or subsidy.  Fortunately, participation in
> this system is voluntary, and you are free to leave at any time.
>
> This seems to be venturing quite off topic, and perhaps would be better
> suited for the bitcoin-discuss list.
>
> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 1:56 PM, Andrew Johnson <andrew.johnson83@gmail•com
> > wrote:
>
>> If a small dissenting minority can block all forward progress then
>> bitcoin is no longer interesting.  What an incredibly simple attack
>> vector...
>>
>> No need to break any cryptography, find a bug to exploit, build tens of
>> millions of dollars in mining hardware, spend lots of bitcoin on fees to
>> flood the network, or be clever or expend any valuable resources in any
>> way, shape, or form.
>>
>> Just convince(or pay, if you do want to expend some resources) a few
>> people(or make up a few online personas) to staunchly refuse to accept
>> anything at all and the entire system is stuck in 2013(when we first
>> started widely discussing a blocksize increase seriously).
>>
>> Is that really the bitcoin that you want to be a part of?
>>
>> When the 1MB cap was implemented it was stated specifically that we could
>> increase it when we needed it.  The white paper even talks about scaling to
>> huge capacity.  Not sure where you got the idea that we all agreed to stay
>> at 1MB forever, I certainly didn't.  It was never stated or implied that we
>> could change the coin cap later(please cite if I'm mistaken).
>>
>>
>> On Feb 8, 2017 12:16 PM, "alp alp" <alp.bitcoin@gmail•com> wrote:
>>
>> Doing nothing is the rules we all agreed to.  If those rules are to be
>> changed,nearly everyone will need to consent.  The same rule applies to the
>> cap, we all agreed to 21m, and if someone wants to change that, nearly
>> everyone would need to agree.
>>
>>
>> On Feb 8, 2017 10:28 AM, "Andrew Johnson" <andrew.johnson83@gmail•com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> It is when you're talking about making a choice and 6.3x more people
>> prefer something else. Doing nothing is a choice as well.
>>
>> Put another way, if 10% supported increasing the 21M coin cap and 63%
>> were against, would you seriously consider doing it?
>>
>> On Feb 8, 2017 9:57 AM, "alp alp" <alp.bitcoin@gmail•com> wrote:
>>
>>> 10% is not a tiny minority.
>>>
>>> On Feb 8, 2017 9:51 AM, "Andrew Johnson" <andrew.johnson83@gmail•com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You're never going to reach 100% agreement, and stifling the network
>>>> literally forever to please a tiny minority is daft.
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 8, 2017 8:52 AM, "alp alp via bitcoin-dev" <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 10% say literally never.  That seems like a significant
>>>> disenfranchisement and lack of consensus.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:25 PM, t. khan via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 2:53 PM, Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Monday, February 06, 2017 6:19:43 PM you wrote:
>>>>>> > >My BIP draft didn't make progress because the community opposes
>>>>>> any block
>>>>>> > >size increase hardfork ever.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Luke, how do you know the community opposes that? Specifically, how
>>>>>> did you
>>>>>> > come to this conclusion?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.strawpoll.me/12228388/r
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That poll shows 63% of votes want a larger than 1 MB block by this
>>>>> summer. How do you go from that to "the community opposes any block
>>>>> increase ever"? It shows the exact opposite of that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> > >Your version doesn't address the current block size
>>>>>> > >issues (ie, the blocks being too large).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Why do you think blocks are "too large"? Please cite some evidence.
>>>>>> I've
>>>>>> > asked this before and you ignored it, but an answer would be
>>>>>> helpful to the
>>>>>> > discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Full node count is far below the safe minimum of 85% of economic
>>>>>> activity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this causing a problem now? If so, what?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Typically reasons given for people not using full nodes themselves
>>>>>> come down
>>>>>> to the high resource requirements caused by the block size.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The reason people stop running nodes is because there's no incentive
>>>>> to counteract the resource costs. Attempting to solve this by making blocks
>>>>> *smaller* is like curing a disease by killing the patient. (Incentivizing
>>>>> full node operation would fix that problem.)
>>>>>
>>>>> - t.k.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
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