* [bitcoin-dev] Censorship
@ 2015-08-21 18:03 sisadm101
2015-08-22 13:39 ` David Vorick
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: sisadm101 @ 2015-08-21 18:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
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People are wondering why there is such a division in the bitcoin community
at this time. Bitcoin as a whole is only so big. The bitcoin discussion
communities are spread out, but there are only a few popular ones.
BitcoinTalk and Reddit seem to be the largest, most popular where bitcoin
discussion happens consistently and from almost everyone in the community
(devs, users, btc companies, merchants, and so on). I think we all know
where this is going. If not, here you go. BitcoinTalk and Reddit are
managed by a single person: Theymos. It's become quite clear over the past
several days/weeks, that Theymos is highly censoring bitcoin discussion,
mainly on Reddit, but also BitcoinTalk. If this single person is able to
censor content, and hush the debate, he (and whatever his agenda is), wins.
How can we as a community discuss these proposed changes, if the discussion
is from a one sided point of view? There doesn't seem to be a solution at
this time, but I find it dissapointing that many (in this very email list)
aren't discussing this important part of the issue. Maybe it's becuase
Theymos is anti-bigger blocks, which seems to coincide with the Blockstream
point of view, which many of the core devs belong to.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-21 18:03 [bitcoin-dev] Censorship sisadm101 @ 2015-08-22 13:39 ` David Vorick 2015-08-23 6:48 ` Jorge Timón 2015-08-31 6:43 ` hurricanewarn1 2015-08-31 10:33 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: David Vorick @ 2015-08-22 13:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: sisadm101; +Cc: bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1950 bytes --] I am not sure that this is on-topic for the bitcoin-dev mailing list, but it seems politically relevant enough that I'm going to respond. /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org are both discussion websites that pertain to a specific topic. All (or nearly all) discussion websites pertaining to a specific topic have a set of rules that get enforced to facilitate relevant and interesting discussion. These rules help to block spam, and help to make sure that discussions happen in their appropriate places. The rules in place on the two primary bitcoin discussion sites have helped facilitate a large userbase frequented by many relevant experts. I do believe that we can thank the strict moderation policies for much of the activity that happens which is technically interesting. /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org are both centralized forums. As such, the rules are going to be set by a centralized authority. The rules set have been set to keep the discussion as interesting and relevant as possible. When a certain theme becomes a massive echo chamber or little more than beating a dead horse, it makes sense to implement moderation. Calling it 'censorship' is misleading, because a government authority is not threatening punishment for the discussion of a certain topic. People are not banned from visiting forums or websites where off-topic (or against-the-rules) discussion is happening. People's /r/bitcoin rights are not being revoked because they are subscribed to a controvertial subreddit. That would be censorship. Many people are clearly unhappy with the moderation happening on /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org. Luckily, the switching cost for online discussion forums is very low. I'm now going to invite people to post links to bitcoin discussion forums where the moderation authority is different. I know that a recently popular subreddit is /r/bitcoin_uncensored I am interested to see what other forums people think are worth mentioning. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2214 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-22 13:39 ` David Vorick @ 2015-08-23 6:48 ` Jorge Timón 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Jorge Timón @ 2015-08-23 6:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Vorick; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev This is off-topic here. Consensus critical changes (those aren't changes that Bitcoin Core developers can make unilaterally against the will of alternative implementations or users) and Bitcoin Core development are independent from bitcointalk.org and /r/bitcoin. And as you say, people can create competing without moderation or "censorship" (ie /r/bitcoin_uncensored or bitcontalkuncensred.org /r/bitcoin_moderated_by_someone_else ). On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 3:39 PM, David Vorick via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > I am not sure that this is on-topic for the bitcoin-dev mailing list, but it > seems politically relevant enough that I'm going to respond. > > /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org are both discussion websites that pertain to > a specific topic. All (or nearly all) discussion websites pertaining to a > specific topic have a set of rules that get enforced to facilitate relevant > and interesting discussion. These rules help to block spam, and help to make > sure that discussions happen in their appropriate places. The rules in place > on the two primary bitcoin discussion sites have helped facilitate a large > userbase frequented by many relevant experts. I do believe that we can thank > the strict moderation policies for much of the activity that happens which > is technically interesting. > > /r/bitcoin and bitcointalk.org are both centralized forums. As such, the > rules are going to be set by a centralized authority. The rules set have > been set to keep the discussion as interesting and relevant as possible. > When a certain theme becomes a massive echo chamber or little more than > beating a dead horse, it makes sense to implement moderation. Calling it > 'censorship' is misleading, because a government authority is not > threatening punishment for the discussion of a certain topic. People are not > banned from visiting forums or websites where off-topic (or > against-the-rules) discussion is happening. People's /r/bitcoin rights are > not being revoked because they are subscribed to a controvertial subreddit. > That would be censorship. > > Many people are clearly unhappy with the moderation happening on /r/bitcoin > and bitcointalk.org. Luckily, the switching cost for online discussion > forums is very low. I'm now going to invite people to post links to bitcoin > discussion forums where the moderation authority is different. > > I know that a recently popular subreddit is /r/bitcoin_uncensored > > I am interested to see what other forums people think are worth mentioning. > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-21 18:03 [bitcoin-dev] Censorship sisadm101 2015-08-22 13:39 ` David Vorick @ 2015-08-31 6:43 ` hurricanewarn1 2015-08-31 8:45 ` NxtChg 2015-08-31 10:33 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan 2 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: hurricanewarn1 @ 2015-08-31 6:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4615 bytes --] Regardless of the XT debate, centralization on reddit and bitcointalk has become a critical issue for the bitcoin community. A few anonymous people control both these forums, giving them unprecedented power to manipulate discussion, alter reputation, ban users, and even to facilitate scammers in the name of getting profits. Protecting the de-centralized spirit of the Bitcoin community is no longer on their list of priorities, in fact those in charge have publicly stated centralization is necessary. It doesn't matter how many thousands of posts you contributed or if you've traded thousands of Bitcoins, if one of the few who control reddit and bitcointalk decide to get rid of you there's nothing you can do. Bitcointalk has done more damage to my reputation than any other website I've ever used, and I only used it for a year. The damage wasn't even from the scammers, but rather those in charge of the community posting false allegations with zero evidence, and enforcing a guilty until proven innocent policy. Even when such allegations are definitively proven incorrect and allegations cease the posts stay on the internet forever, another site crawls all the bitcoin discussion and saves it. It's not an isolated incident either, happened several times to me before I realized how detrimental it was to even post there, and I've seen countless other members receive the same treatment. There is no doubt that the centralization and censorship of the Bitcoin community is massively inhibiting the advance of Bitcoin and also the growth of the Bitcoin economy. We are scaring away intellectuals, businessman, and newbies that are just getting started. It has put us in a very dangerous position, the community has been weakened, and there is the possibility that the forums could be handed over to the government at any time due to their centralized nature. I am creating a de-centralized forum, and I mean truly de-centralized as I nor anyone else will be able to control it. I am already writing the code and I'm confident it won't be long until a basic release is out. I am certain this will be very positive for the Bitcoin community, and the rest of the world since centralization is getting stronger everyday. The world needs this to level the playing field, it will be impossible for anything to be deleted on this forum even if the NSA attacks it. No one will be banned ever. The only rule is there are no rules. If anyone is interested in this feel free to email me back. I am doing this for zero profit and without any pay, just out of passion, so I don't mind getting as much people as possible involved. -----Original Message----- From: sisadm101--- via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> To: bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> Sent: Fri, Aug 21, 2015 2:10 pm Subject: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship People are wondering why there is such a division in the bitcoin community at this time. Bitcoin as a whole is only so big. The bitcoin discussion communities are spread out, but there are only a few popular ones. BitcoinTalk and Reddit seem to be the largest, most popular where bitcoin discussion happens consistently and from almost everyone in the community (devs, users, btc companies, merchants, and so on). I think we all know where this is going. If not, here you go. BitcoinTalk and Reddit are managed by a single person: Theymos. It's become quite clear over the past several days/weeks, that Theymos is highly censoring bitcoin discussion, mainly on Reddit, but also BitcoinTalk. If this single person is able to censor content, and hush the debate, he (and whatever his agenda is), wins. How can we as a community discuss these proposed changes, if the discussion is from a one sided point of view? There doesn't seem to be a solution at this time, but I find it dissapointing that many (in this very email list) aren't discussing this important part of the issue. Maybe it's becuase Theymos is anti-bigger blocks, which seems to coincide with the Blockstream point of view, which many of the core devs belong to. ------------------------------------------------- ONLY AT VFEmail! - Use our Metadata Mitigator™ to keep your email out of the NSA's hands! $24.95 ONETIME Lifetime accounts with Privacy Features! No Bandwidth Quotas! 15GB disk space! Commercial and Bulk Mail Options! _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5808 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 6:43 ` hurricanewarn1 @ 2015-08-31 8:45 ` NxtChg 2015-08-31 9:35 ` hurricanewarn1 2015-08-31 11:46 ` Natanael 0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: NxtChg @ 2015-08-31 8:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hurricanewarn1, bitcoin-dev >I am creating a de-centralized forum, and I mean truly decentralized as I nor anyone else will be able to control it. Zander is working on the same thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/AetheralResearch/ But it's actually quite difficult to make it truly censorship-resistant: both in solving the theymos factor and spam/abuse/overloading as an attack. >There is no doubt that the centralization and censorship of the Bitcoin community is massively inhibiting the advance of Bitcoin >and also the growth of the Bitcoin economy. We are scaring away intellectuals, businessman, and newbies that are just getting started. We have /r/bitcoinxt and so far it has been great. But we also need a regular forum. Roger Ver controls bitcoin.com, as I understand? https://bitcoin.com/forum/ would be nice. And it must be a real community, not "say whatever you want because free speech". We've seen how that turned out to be. Something like battle.net or Steam forums: heavily moderated, not for opinions, but for spam/noise/insults. Again, this needs leadership. Anyone can install a forum software, what is needed is an "official seal of approval" and regular presence of top XT people there. And a will to setup proper moderation. Then people will move. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 8:45 ` NxtChg @ 2015-08-31 9:35 ` hurricanewarn1 2015-08-31 9:37 ` Btc Drak 2015-08-31 9:51 ` NxtChg 2015-08-31 11:46 ` Natanael 1 sibling, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: hurricanewarn1 @ 2015-08-31 9:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: nxtchg, bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2934 bytes --] When I say de-centralized I mean it, all the things you listed are centralized. Reddit is actually a purely centralized system and just as unhealthy as the current bitcoin forum. We have the technology, I'm simply putting together the pieces that other people have already built. This forum will literally be uncontrollable in raw form, once it's unleashed it can't be stopped. It will exist on thousands of computers so it cannot be destroyed, it will not be centrally hosted. I expect users to create their own external software to parse the data, so people can centralize as much or as little as they want in their own 'sub-forums' built on this system. I will be releasing some very rudimentary external software/website to go along with this de-centralized system just so people can post and read what's posted, and will worry about the finer details at a later time. There will be various leaders who utilize this program and organize quality forums, but fundamentally the raw de-centralized system cannot be controlled, so people posting to it will always have a venue to speak without being censored. I actually started this project to create a journal of uncensored scientific research, but it didn't take long to realize this sort've thing is useful for pretty much everyone, so I'm rushing the basic release out. Then I will work on making my science journal 'sub-forum' software and everyone else can do whatever they want. -----Original Message----- From: NxtChg <nxtchg@hush•com> To: hurricanewarn1 <hurricanewarn1@aol•com>; bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2015 4:45 am Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship >I am creating a de-centralized forum, and I mean truly decentralized as I nor anyone else will be able to control it. Zander is working on the same thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/AetheralResearch/ But it's actually quite difficult to make it truly censorship-resistant: both in solving the theymos factor and spam/abuse/overloading as an attack. >There is no doubt that the centralization and censorship of the Bitcoin community is massively inhibiting the advance of Bitcoin >and also the growth of the Bitcoin economy. We are scaring away intellectuals, businessman, and newbies that are just getting started. We have /r/bitcoinxt and so far it has been great. But we also need a regular forum. Roger Ver controls bitcoin.com, as I understand? https://bitcoin.com/forum/ would be nice. And it must be a real community, not "say whatever you want because free speech". We've seen how that turned out to be. Something like battle.net or Steam forums: heavily moderated, not for opinions, but for spam/noise/insults. Again, this needs leadership. Anyone can install a forum software, what is needed is an "official seal of approval" and regular presence of top XT people there. And a will to setup proper moderation. Then people will move. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3753 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 9:35 ` hurricanewarn1 @ 2015-08-31 9:37 ` Btc Drak 2015-08-31 9:49 ` NxtChg 2015-08-31 9:51 ` NxtChg 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Btc Drak @ 2015-08-31 9:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hurricanewarn1; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev While this topic is very interesting, I do not see how it is relevant to a mailing list dedicated to technical and academic debate. Please can you take this discussion elsewhere. On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 10:35 AM, Zach G via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > When I say de-centralized I mean it, all the things you listed are > centralized. Reddit is actually a purely centralized system and just as > unhealthy as the current bitcoin forum. We have the technology, I'm simply > putting together the pieces that other people have already built. This forum > will literally be uncontrollable in raw form, once it's unleashed it can't > be stopped. It will exist on thousands of computers so it cannot be > destroyed, it will not be centrally hosted. > > I expect users to create their own external software to parse the data, so > people can centralize as much or as little as they want in their own > 'sub-forums' built on this system. I will be releasing some very rudimentary > external software/website to go along with this de-centralized system just > so people can post and read what's posted, and will worry about the finer > details at a later time. > > There will be various leaders who utilize this program and organize quality > forums, but fundamentally the raw de-centralized system cannot be > controlled, so people posting to it will always have a venue to speak > without being censored. > > I actually started this project to create a journal of uncensored scientific > research, but it didn't take long to realize this sort've thing is useful > for pretty much everyone, so I'm rushing the basic release out. Then I will > work on making my science journal 'sub-forum' software and everyone else can > do whatever they want. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: NxtChg <nxtchg@hush•com> > To: hurricanewarn1 <hurricanewarn1@aol•com>; bitcoin-dev > <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> > Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2015 4:45 am > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship > > >>I am creating a de-centralized forum, and I mean truly decentralized as I >> nor > anyone else will be able to control it. > > Zander is working on the same thing: > https://www.reddit.com/r/AetheralResearch/ > > But it's actually quite difficult > to make it truly censorship-resistant: both in solving the theymos factor > and > spam/abuse/overloading as an attack. > > >>There is no doubt that the > centralization and censorship of the Bitcoin community is massively > inhibiting > the advance of Bitcoin >>and also the growth of the Bitcoin economy. We are > scaring away intellectuals, businessman, and newbies that are just getting > started. > > We have /r/bitcoinxt and so far it has been great. But we also need > a regular forum. > > Roger Ver controls bitcoin.com, as I understand? > https://bitcoin.com/forum/ would be nice. > > And it must be a real community, > not "say whatever you want because free speech". We've seen how that turned > out > to be. > > Something like battle.net or Steam forums: heavily moderated, not for > opinions, but for spam/noise/insults. > > Again, this needs leadership. Anyone > can install a forum software, what is needed is an "official seal of > approval" > and regular presence of top XT people there. > > And a will to setup proper > moderation. Then people will move. > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 9:37 ` Btc Drak @ 2015-08-31 9:49 ` NxtChg 2015-08-31 10:25 ` Btc Drak 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: NxtChg @ 2015-08-31 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Btc Drak, hurricanewarn1; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev >While this topic is very interesting, I do not see how it is >relevant to a mailing list dedicated to technical and academic debate. >Please can you take this discussion elsewhere. Wow. I have Deja Vu. Where have I heard recently that discussing Bitcoin split is off topic and must be stopped?.. Hm... This is the biggest issue with Bitcoin right now and you want us to move to some obscure place? Where? Reddit? Where we can't be heard? Create another list with top XT people then. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 9:49 ` NxtChg @ 2015-08-31 10:25 ` Btc Drak 2015-08-31 10:38 ` NxtChg 0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Btc Drak @ 2015-08-31 10:25 UTC (permalink / raw) To: NxtChg; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 10:49 AM, NxtChg <nxtchg@hush•com> wrote: >>While this topic is very interesting, I do not see how it is >>relevant to a mailing list dedicated to technical and academic debate. >>Please can you take this discussion elsewhere. > > Wow. I have Deja Vu. Where have I heard recently that discussing Bitcoin split is off topic and must be stopped?.. Hm... > > This is the biggest issue with Bitcoin right now and you want us to move to some obscure place? > > Where? Reddit? Where we can't be heard? Create another list with top XT people then. This is a technical list dedicated to technical discussions revolving around the bitcoin protocol and related technologies. What I am saying is your discussion topic is not relevant to the long established theme of this list. Please have a bit of decorum and respect for people who joined this list so they could participate in and review technical/academic topics. Clearly there *should* be a general bitcoin discussion list somewhere, I don't disagree (and I have repeatedly asked for one to be created), but regardless, this list isn't it. The flood of off topic and non-technical posts make it almost impossible to follow any technical proposals. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 10:25 ` Btc Drak @ 2015-08-31 10:38 ` NxtChg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: NxtChg @ 2015-08-31 10:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Btc Drak; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev >This is a technical list dedicated to technical discussions revolving around the bitcoin protocol and related technologies. I am so sorry. I thought this was XT list :) Apologies to everyone. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 9:35 ` hurricanewarn1 2015-08-31 9:37 ` Btc Drak @ 2015-08-31 9:51 ` NxtChg 1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: NxtChg @ 2015-08-31 9:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hurricanewarn1, bitcoin-dev >...so people posting to it will always have a venue to speak without being censored. So is the attacker, who aims to make the place unusable. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 8:45 ` NxtChg 2015-08-31 9:35 ` hurricanewarn1 @ 2015-08-31 11:46 ` Natanael 2015-08-31 12:06 ` hurricanewarn1 1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread From: Natanael @ 2015-08-31 11:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: NxtChg; +Cc: bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2276 bytes --] One last comment here on this topic; For anybody who wants to discuss decentralized communication mechanisms in general, they can come to www.reddit.com/r/p2pcomms (up until these decentralized forums have become stable and common). I've seen quite a few more of these projects lately, I want to make a list of them and would definitely like to contribute to making them not just usable, but good enough to gain popularity on their own. (And in case you wonder about my approach to moderation: let every user pick which moderators / filters / servers he trusts, and let them share their subscription preferences in place of sharing links to centralized forums.) - Sent from my phone Den 31 aug 2015 10:45 skrev "NxtChg via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>: > > >I am creating a de-centralized forum, and I mean truly decentralized as I > nor anyone else will be able to control it. > > Zander is working on the same thing: > https://www.reddit.com/r/AetheralResearch/ > > But it's actually quite difficult to make it truly censorship-resistant: > both in solving the theymos factor and spam/abuse/overloading as an attack. > > > >There is no doubt that the centralization and censorship of the Bitcoin > community is massively inhibiting the advance of Bitcoin > >and also the growth of the Bitcoin economy. We are scaring away > intellectuals, businessman, and newbies that are just getting started. > > We have /r/bitcoinxt and so far it has been great. But we also need a > regular forum. > > Roger Ver controls bitcoin.com, as I understand? > https://bitcoin.com/forum/ would be nice. > > And it must be a real community, not "say whatever you want because free > speech". We've seen how that turned out to be. > > Something like battle.net or Steam forums: heavily moderated, not for > opinions, but for spam/noise/insults. > > Again, this needs leadership. Anyone can install a forum software, what is > needed is an "official seal of approval" and regular presence of top XT > people there. > > And a will to setup proper moderation. Then people will move. > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3228 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-31 11:46 ` Natanael @ 2015-08-31 12:06 ` hurricanewarn1 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: hurricanewarn1 @ 2015-08-31 12:06 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3138 bytes --] The de-centralized forum directly integrates the Bitcoin blockchain with every post. I can see how you misunderstood since I wasn't specific in my first email. I'm surprised no one has done this yet, people have done things very similar but never took the leap to integrate the actual Bitcoin blockchain. Basically http://cryptograffiti.info/ but with a parallel program that stores most of the data in a hash reference table, and shares that data via a torrent-esque system. The Bitcoin of thoughts. -----Original Message----- From: Natanael <natanael.l@gmail•com> To: NxtChg <nxtchg@hush•com> Cc: bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>; hurricanewarn1 <hurricanewarn1@aol•com> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2015 7:46 am Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship One last comment here on this topic; For anybody who wants to discuss decentralized communication mechanisms in general, they can come to www.reddit.com/r/p2pcomms (up until these decentralized forums have become stable and common). I've seen quite a few more of these projects lately, I want to make a list of them and would definitely like to contribute to making them not just usable, but good enough to gain popularity on their own. (And in case you wonder about my approach to moderation: let every user pick which moderators / filters / servers he trusts, and let them share their subscription preferences in place of sharing links to centralized forums.) - Sent from my phone Den 31 aug 2015 10:45 skrev "NxtChg via bitcoin-dev" < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>: >I am creating a de-centralized forum, and I mean truly decentralized as I nor anyone else will be able to control it. Zander is working on the same thing: https://www.reddit.com/r/AetheralResearch/ But it's actually quite difficult to make it truly censorship-resistant: both in solving the theymos factor and spam/abuse/overloading as an attack. >There is no doubt that the centralization and censorship of the Bitcoin community is massively inhibiting the advance of Bitcoin >and also the growth of the Bitcoin economy. We are scaring away intellectuals, businessman, and newbies that are just getting started. We have /r/bitcoinxt and so far it has been great. But we also need a regular forum. Roger Ver controls bitcoin.com, as I understand? https://bitcoin.com/forum/ would be nice. And it must be a real community, not "say whatever you want because free speech". We've seen how that turned out to be. Something like battle.net or Steam forums: heavily moderated, not for opinions, but for spam/noise/insults. Again, this needs leadership. Anyone can install a forum software, what is needed is an "official seal of approval" and regular presence of top XT people there. And a will to setup proper moderation. Then people will move. _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4707 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship 2015-08-21 18:03 [bitcoin-dev] Censorship sisadm101 2015-08-22 13:39 ` David Vorick 2015-08-31 6:43 ` hurricanewarn1 @ 2015-08-31 10:33 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan 2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: Wladimir J. van der Laan @ 2015-08-31 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: sisadm101; +Cc: bitcoin-dev On Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 01:03:33PM -0500, sisadm101--- via bitcoin-dev wrote: > is from a one sided point of view? There doesn't seem to be a solution at > this time, but I find it dissapointing that many (in this very email list) Please, this has drifted so far from the goal of this list: bitcoin development, and technical and academic debate about that. Meta-discussion of communities has no place here. I'd say: in the spirit of permissionlessness, everyone can create a community or list about bitcoin. If you don't agree with the admin, create your own. That's more constructive use of everyone's time and energy than trying to pressure people to change their behavior on their own home turf. Wladimir ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <CALGZhhvAV3iB=QDs2-NtLR5U7toqnygQAWU_ShPvL1xWX_upQQ@mail.gmail.com>]
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship [not found] <CALGZhhvAV3iB=QDs2-NtLR5U7toqnygQAWU_ShPvL1xWX_upQQ@mail.gmail.com> @ 2015-08-31 17:00 ` hurricanewarn1 0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread From: hurricanewarn1 @ 2015-08-31 17:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: mwozniak, bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 8682 bytes --] Yup I've been looking over twister thoroughly this week, it's very close to what I'm thinking and I'm sure the developer of that could easily do the project I'm doing. However he decided to make an alt coin and didn't use the real blockchain, which makes his network weak. It's a waste to not take advantage of the immense bitcoin computing power for this. I'm only planning on storing hashes in the blockchain though to prevent data bloat, and the parallel program which stores all the data will be a lot like twister. Additionally I'm going to take it beyond a messaging system, will be able to literally upload anything and everything to this system. Theres no limit to what this de-centralized system can do if designed correctly. Crypto graffiti has given a taste of that by uploading jpeg and png to the blockchain. Will be working on this 24/7 until the first release, will definitely tell you and others when the code is ready to be looked over. Fortunately I am employed by bitcoin so I can focus on this -----Original Message----- From: Michael Wozniak <mwozniak@itbit•com> To: hurricanewarn1 <hurricanewarn1@aol•com> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2015 09:15 AM Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_3e2f989c-2ac0-4675-a613-58f047c46a67"> <div class="aolReplacedBody"> <div dir="ltr"> Have you seen this: <a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="http://twister.net.co/">http://twister.net.co/</a> <div> It sounds very similar to what you're trying to do. Also, I'd be willing to help out in the form of running some alpha/beta software as part of the network once you get something working. Depending what languages you're writing in, I might help with code. </div> <div class="aolmail_gmail_extra"> <div class="aolmail_gmail_quote"> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 8:06 AM, Zach G via bitcoin-dev <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org</a>></span> wrote: <blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <font color="black" size="2" face="arial"><font face="arial" color="black" size="2"><font size="2">The de-centralized forum directly integrates the Bitcoin blockchain with every post. I can see how you misunderstood since I wasn't specific in my first email. I'm surprised no one has done this yet, people have done things very similar but never took the leap to integrate the actual Bitcoin blockchain. Basically <a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="http://cryptograffiti.info/">http://cryptograffiti.info/</a> but with a parallel program that stores most of the data in a hash reference table, and shares that data via a torrent-esque system. The Bitcoin of thoughts.</font></font> <div style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black"> <span>-----Original Message----- From: Natanael <<a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="mailto:natanael.l@gmail.com">natanael.l@gmail•com</a>> To: NxtChg <<a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="mailto:nxtchg@hush.com">nxtchg@hush•com</a>> Cc: bitcoin-dev <<a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org</a>>; hurricanewarn1 <<a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="mailto:hurricanewarn1@aol.com">hurricanewarn1@aol•com</a>> Sent: Mon, Aug 31, 2015 7:46 am Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Censorship </span> <div class="aolmail_h5"> <div> <div> <div dir="ltr"> One last comment here on this topic; <div dir="ltr"> For anybody who wants to discuss decentralized communication mechanisms in general, they can come to <a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="http://www.reddit.com/r/p2pcomms">www.reddit.com/r/p2pcomms</a> (up until these decentralized forums have become stable and common). </div> <div dir="ltr"> I've seen quite a few more of these projects lately, I want to make a list of them and would definitely like to contribute to making them not just usable, but good enough to gain popularity on their own. </div> <div dir="ltr"> (And in case you wonder about my approach to moderation: let every user pick which moderators / filters / servers he trusts, and let them share their subscription preferences in place of sharing links to centralized forums.) </div> <div dir="ltr"> - Sent from my phone </div> <div class="aolmail_gmail_quote"> Den 31 aug 2015 10:45 skrev "NxtChg via bitcoin-dev" < <a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org</a>>: <blockquote class="aolmail_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >I am creating a de-centralized forum, and I mean truly decentralized as I nor anyone else will be able to control it. Zander is working on the same thing: <a rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="https://www.reddit.com/r/AetheralResearch/">https://www.reddit.com/r/AetheralResearch/</a> But it's actually quite difficult to make it truly censorship-resistant: both in solving the theymos factor and spam/abuse/overloading as an attack. >There is no doubt that the centralization and censorship of the Bitcoin community is massively inhibiting the advance of Bitcoin >and also the growth of the Bitcoin economy. We are scaring away intellectuals, businessman, and newbies that are just getting started. We have /r/bitcoinxt and so far it has been great. But we also need a regular forum. Roger Ver controls <a rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="http://bitcoin.com">bitcoin.com</a>, as I understand? <a rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="https://bitcoin.com/forum/">https://bitcoin.com/forum/</a> would be nice. And it must be a real community, not "say whatever you want because free speech". We've seen how that turned out to be. Something like <a rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="http://battle.net">battle.net</a> or Steam forums: heavily moderated, not for opinions, but for spam/noise/insults. Again, this needs leadership. Anyone can install a forum software, what is needed is an "official seal of approval" and regular presence of top XT people there. And a will to setup proper moderation. Then people will move. _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list <a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org</a> <a rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> </font> _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list <a target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org</a> <a rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" removedlink__58ec13b3-aba4-4e37-b10b-87cbd851ae2f__href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div> </div> </div> [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 9115 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
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2015-08-21 18:03 [bitcoin-dev] Censorship sisadm101
2015-08-22 13:39 ` David Vorick
2015-08-23 6:48 ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-31 6:43 ` hurricanewarn1
2015-08-31 8:45 ` NxtChg
2015-08-31 9:35 ` hurricanewarn1
2015-08-31 9:37 ` Btc Drak
2015-08-31 9:49 ` NxtChg
2015-08-31 10:25 ` Btc Drak
2015-08-31 10:38 ` NxtChg
2015-08-31 9:51 ` NxtChg
2015-08-31 11:46 ` Natanael
2015-08-31 12:06 ` hurricanewarn1
2015-08-31 10:33 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan
[not found] <CALGZhhvAV3iB=QDs2-NtLR5U7toqnygQAWU_ShPvL1xWX_upQQ@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-31 17:00 ` hurricanewarn1
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