public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT Fork
@ 2015-08-19  8:25 Btc Drak
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 56+ messages in thread
From: Btc Drak @ 2015-08-19  8:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Micha Bailey; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3702 bytes --]

I see no problem with Satoshi returning to participate in peer review.
Bitcoin development has long since migrated from a single authority figure
to a system of technical peer review consensus. What is more of a problem
is this list has degenerated to a generalised discussion forum where any
academic or technical debate is drowned out by noise.

I joined this list so I keep be abreast of bitcoin's technical development
and proposals. I am sure many ecosystem stakeholders and participants also
once used this list to keep abreast of technical developments and academic
research. It would be splendid indeed if we could return to some semblance
of decorum that once existed.

Do you think we could have a "bitcoin-discuss" list where specifically
non-technical discussion can happen leaving this list for more academic and
technical debate together with setting a clear mandate about what is on
topic for this list?


On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Micha Bailey via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> My interpretation is that he's saying Satoshi wouldn't be welcome to
> return as Satoshi, because whatever he did/said would inevitably end up
> being treated with authority, which shouldn't be the case.
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 18, 2015, Warren Togami Jr. via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> I honestly don't understand your position, but I get the sense that you
>> are suggesting Satoshi wouldn't be welcome to return if he wanted to be
>> active in development again?
>>
>> Warren
>> On Aug 17, 2015 1:38 PM, "Oliver Egginger" <bitcoin@olivere•de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 17.08.2015 um 21:03 schrieb Warren Togami Jr.:
>>> > This bitcoin-dev list restarted with an empty subscriber list on June
>>> > 21st, 2015.  So whoever posted from satoshi@vistomail•com
>>> > <mailto:satoshi@vistomail•com> subscribed and verified the address
>>> > recently.  Do you propose that we manually approve new subscribers to
>>> > prevent these kind of "abuses" as you put it?
>>>
>>> I would simply block the creators old email addresses. Easy with
>>> Mailman. I thought that would be a good and easy approach, but maybe I'm
>>> wrong.
>>>
>>> Some believes it is possible that the email could be genuine. Some say
>>> that only the content is important. I have closely followed. An
>>> interesting discussion. Thank you all so far.
>>>
>>> But let's say the poster would be the real Satoshi. Would we discuss his
>>> posting if he would not claim to be Satoshi? There are a lot of smart
>>> people on this list, which publish occasionally quite useful ideas. But
>>> much of this is hardly the subject of greater discussion. Especially not
>>> when it comes to the blocksize. On this subject almost everything has
>>> been already said. But not yet by everyone. Especially not by Satoshi.
>>>
>>> Satoshi would have a decisive influence on the community. I'm sure. To
>>> say it does not matter who's talking is maybe genteelly but a little bit
>>> remote from everyday life. Or not? Satoshi is the creator. What he says
>>> is in the newspaper and is perceived by all. If he says it's okay to do
>>> nothing as long as we stand together, then people have the courage to do
>>> maybe something dangerous or something wrong. Then people only follow
>>> their hearts. Otherwise they follow their fear. It is a paradox of the
>>> human nature that some type of Dictatorship can make you free. I say
>>> some type, not any type. Enough said.
>>>
>>> - oliver
>>>
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4857 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 56+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT Fork
@ 2015-08-19 16:53 Adam Back
  2015-08-19 17:22 ` Simon Liu
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 56+ messages in thread
From: Adam Back @ 2015-08-19 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Angel Leon; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev

It seems to be a recurring meme that BIP 101 is somehow "a solution
put forward" where BIP 100, 102, 103, flexcap, extension blocks etc
etc are not.

That is not at ALL the case, and is insulting (present company excluded).

It is just that no one else is reckless enough to bypass the review
process and risk a controversial hard fork deployment war.  Myself and
many other people warned Gavin a network fork "war" would start (ie
someone would think of some way to sabotage or attack the deployment
of Bitcoin-XT via protocol, code, policy, consensus soft-fork etc.  He
ignored the warnings.  Many also warned that 75% was an optimally BAD
trigger ratio (and that in a hard fork it is not a miner vote really
as in soft-forks).  Gavin & Mike ignored that warning to.  I know they
heard those warnings because I told them 1:1 in person or via email
and had on going conversations.  Others did too.

People can not blame bitcoin core or me, that this then predictably
happened exactly as we said it would - it was completely obvious and
predictable.

In fact noBitcoinXT is even more dangerous and therefore amplified in
effect in creating mutual assured destruction kind of risk profile
than the loose spectrum of technical counters imagined.  I did not
personally put much effort into thinking about counters because I
though it counter productive and hoped that Gavin & Mike would have
the maturity to not start down such a path.

Again any of the other proposals can easily be implemented.  They
*could* also spin up a web page and put up binaries, however no one
else was crazy enough to try to start a deployment in that way.

It is also puzzling timing - with all these BIPs and ongoing
discussion and workshops coming imminently to then release ahead of
that process where as far as I know Gavin said he was equally happy
with BIP 100 or other proposal which ever is best, and on basically
the eve of workshops planned to progress this collaboratively.
Bitcoin-XT is also under tested, people are finding privacy bugs and
other issues.  (Not even mentioning the above 75% optimally bad
parameter, and the damage to community reputation and collaborative
environment that this all causes.)

Very disappointing Gavin and Mike.

I find it quite notable that Gavin and Mike have been radio silent on
the bitcoin-dev list and yet we see a stream of media articles, blog
posts, pod casts, and from what I can tell ongoing backroom lobbying
of companies to run bitcoin-XT without trying AT ALL to offer a
neutral or balanced or multi proposal information package so that
companies technical people can make a balanced informed decision.
That is what the workshops are trying to provide.

Gavin, Mike - anything to say here?

Adam

On 18 August 2015 at 19:59, Angel Leon via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> "How then to end this XT madness?"
>
> Instead of bashing on someone that has actually put a solution forward, make
> your own fork and see if your ideas on how to solve the issue are any
> better.
>
> As of now, 1Mb blocks are pure madness, and people are voting over an 8mb
> block increase every day that passes, even with a "useless project" like you
> call it.
>
> Go out there and see how bitcoin is actually used.
>
> http://twitter.com/gubatron
>
> On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 10:54 PM, odinn via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> The "XT Fork" (better said, a POS alt*) and those behind it make not
>> even a pretense to work through process involved with bitcoin developmen
>> t.
>>
>> (*This is not intended as a slight toward any other alts, as here in
>> this post I am focusing solely on XT.)
>>
>> Instead of abandoning their useless project, or at least conceding
>> that their alt is operating essentially outside of the development
>> funnel (by this I mean BIP process), the developers of XT, via their
>> latest presentation of XT give nothing more than an attack on bitcoin
>> (albeit one that, more than anything, is designed to sidetrack real
>> discussion necessary to resolve the issues so as to achieve some level
>> of consensus in block size debates).  Curiously, XT is not even truly
>> the implementation of BIP 101; the actual proposed implementation of
>> BIP 101 as proposed at
>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0101.mediawiki#implement
>> ation
>> is found here: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6341
>> (It is currently a closed issue.)
>>
>> It's probably valid to call into question why Mike Hearn in particular
>> persists with this project at all, as he has been its biggest
>> cheerleader. Some reasons may be:
>> 1) His interest in attacking bitcoin in the past (seems to be a
>> recurring pattern)
>> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=333824.0
>>
>> 2) His employment (has come up before) - QinetiQ, Google, etc
>> https://plus.google.com/+MikeHearn/about - it's simply not
>> unreasonable to ask why he's pushing it so hard when nobody wants it.
>>
>> 3) Various reasons mentioned here:
>> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/39yaug/the_history_of_mike_hea
>> rn_and_why_you_should_not/
>>
>>
>> 4) His disinterest in following what is actually happening with votes
>> on legitimate proposals (e.g. Garzik's BIP 100) in the blocks. (Caveat
>> ~ one doesn't see the BIP 100 yet in bitcoin/bips because it won't
>> appear for another couple weeks, supposedly.  The miners' voting is
>> already happening however.) Even according to http://xtnodes.com/ we
>> see that XT runs minimal nodes in comparison to the rest of nodes
>> being run across the network.
>>
>> BIP 100 itself is anticipated to be submitted w/ implementation in the
>> next 2 weeks and many miners are already voting on BIP 100 (as per
>> Jeff Garzik, from a post 08/12/2015 12:46 PM -0400 to this mailing list)
>> .
>>
>>  It is an insult to see Hearn fling the XT turd into the community
>> repeatedly.
>>
>> How then to end this XT madness?
>>
>> "The ring was made in the fires of Mount Doom. Only there can it be
>> unmade. The ring must be taken deep into Mordor and cast back into the
>> fiery chasm from whence it came. One of you must do this."
>> - - Lord Elrond
>>
>> Do not download this loathsome XT thing. Cast it back into the fires
>> from whence it came.
>>
>> - -Odinn
>>
>>
>> On 08/15/2015 10:43 AM, Satoshi Nakamoto via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>> > I have been following the recent block size debates through the
>> > mailing list.  I had hoped the debate would resolve and that a fork
>> > proposal would achieve widespread consensus.  However with the
>> > formal release of Bitcoin XT 0.11A, this looks unlikely to happen,
>> > and so I am forced to share my concerns about this very dangerous
>> > fork.
>> >
>> > The developers of this pretender-Bitcoin claim to be following my
>> > original vision, but nothing could be further from the truth.  When
>> > I designed Bitcoin, I designed it in such a way as to make future
>> > modifications to the consensus rules difficult without near
>> > unanimous agreement.  Bitcoin was designed to be protected from the
>> > influence of charismatic leaders, even if their name is Gavin
>> > Andresen, Barack Obama, or Satoshi Nakamoto.  Nearly everyone has
>> > to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced
>> > or pressured into it.  By doing a fork in this way, these
>> > developers are violating the "original vision" they claim to
>> > honour.
>> >
>> > They use my old writings to make claims about what Bitcoin was
>> > supposed to be.  However I acknowledge that a lot has changed since
>> > that time, and new knowledge has been gained that contradicts some
>> > of my early opinions.  For example I didn't anticipate pooled
>> > mining and its effects on the security of the network.  Making
>> > Bitcoin a competitive monetary system while also preserving its
>> > security properties is not a trivial problem, and we should take
>> > more time to come up with a robust solution.  I suspect we need a
>> > better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely
>> > on altruism.
>> >
>> > If two developers can fork Bitcoin and succeed in redefining what
>> > "Bitcoin" is, in the face of widespread technical criticism and
>> > through the use of populist tactics, then I will have no choice but
>> > to declare Bitcoin a failed project.  Bitcoin was meant to be both
>> > technically and socially robust.  This present situation has been
>> > very disappointing to watch unfold.
>> >
>> > Satoshi Nakamoto
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing
>> > list bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>> >
>>
>> - --
>> http://abis.io ~
>> "a protocol concept to enable decentralization
>> and expansion of a giving economy, and a new social good"
>> https://keybase.io/odinn
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1
>>
>> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJV0+/fAAoJEGxwq/inSG8C4ZAIAKm1pEne0FlOW1O4zLe6mZOz
>> YTcnpSHFiVw4AfUPgbzR813ODphnJqcwnoT1q/sojjqgIDtwZY+AqdjA3VAbe15D
>> bAPlvQGmXMlaXq8OteDYPKxPzQMUlRtxEd9+sxO5IGFx0kvmKQLzdk6cmgawcRhN
>> PrDyXIqLlx6Yp0REQ03v3poLTGojUkPLeqdMrJAjwpuAyv9F8iVUn7SeHemEi8cm
>> fW4wOJogA8j9P//3a7+Cr8bjnOz6+QwpHsdlZlKM4VUTxt3Vgx4vu+SQjQxWgZEK
>> I+HGvgQW1buoDxleBbFq6SJc55lhF41IB17tewuDuPzT2nL4zOkbis1tUk3ASxY=
>> =Rm7w
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 56+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT Fork
@ 2015-08-17 20:24 Theo Chino
  2015-08-18  4:56 ` Dave Scotese
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 56+ messages in thread
From: Theo Chino @ 2015-08-17 20:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3639 bytes --]

Hello,

I might have a "crazy" simple solution.
From the literature I read, it seems that Satochi has the keys that would
authenticate him using Bitcoin.

HBO John Oliver's program might have given me (and hopefully others) the
brilliant idea to protect the Bitcoin network from the overzealous reach of
the politicians. One need to start a Church, and to start the Church one
need funds (121UZ1hDs9MgCHonA8vjXr89D8FuDf5c7t) to start.

John Oliver's program on HBO about Churches (and the hypocrisy of some) was
epic and such entity could argue that Bitcoin is a belief system (which it
is) and would force the issue at a Federal level under the Church and State
separation. - John's video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

At this time, I am waiting for the License issue to walk its course in New
York State.

Currently:

   - I am waiting for my License to be denied (to protest) and appeal it.
   - Waiting to hear from the License process to appeal the law in general.
   - Meeting Elected officials (in New York City, NY State, and France) and
   educating them on Bitcoin.

Every time we (the community) talk about Bitcoin, it can sound like
religion; therefore why not go all the way and do what John Oliver did ?
Seed money would help. :)

Regarding the Fork, from my perspective of a small company, I see that like
it was with IRC with the ICMP node split. The Church thing is not here to
take side but to "try" to protect the Bitcoin.

We will need to ordain ministers selected after completing prescribed
courses of study setup by the developers.

In short I am asking Satochi to help this church with original coins. If it
is a troll, I am talking to the Dev Community at large to recruit them to
ordain the ministers.

Regards,
*Theo Chino*


*https://www.facebook.com/groups/557495624389384
<https://www.facebook.com/groups/557495624389384> (NY
State)http://frenchmorning.com/en/2014/08/18/french-robin-hood-bitcoin-new-york
<http://frenchmorning.com/en/2014/08/18/french-robin-hood-bitcoin-new-york>*

*(My position on the fork is still the same as when I ran for a seat of the
Foundation; still don't have enough information and thing will move faster
than I can devote the time to read about it.)*

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 1:30 PM, Btc Drak via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> For the record I would like to share my technical analysis of the Satoshi
> email which I wrote in a pastebin (http://pastebin.com/Ct5M8fa2) a few
> days ago.
>
> 1. The email is the one used by Satoshi to announce Bitcoin in the first
> place.
> http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2008-October/014810.html
>
> 2. The email was not spoofed, it actually originated from vistomail's
> server. The email headers show the email originated from 190.97.163.93
> and the SPF records show this as an authorised sender for the email. This
> does not prove the account wasn't hacked of course, or that the account
> might have expired and be re-registered by someone else (vistomail is a
> paid for email provider).
>
> 3. While the email is not signed, and there are a number of PGP keys
> listed on key servers for him (to vary addresses), he didnt sign any emails
> with any PGP keys.
>
> It is therefore not possible to outright dismiss the email's authenticity
> as the email originates from an authentic source. The only questions is
> whether the webmail service was hacked or commandeered somehow.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5421 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 56+ messages in thread
* [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT Fork
@ 2015-08-15 17:43 Satoshi Nakamoto
  2015-08-15 19:08 ` Laszlo Hanyecz
                   ` (5 more replies)
  0 siblings, 6 replies; 56+ messages in thread
From: Satoshi Nakamoto @ 2015-08-15 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

I have been following the recent block size debates through the mailing list.  I had hoped the debate would resolve and that a fork proposal would achieve widespread consensus.  However with the formal release of Bitcoin XT 0.11A, this looks unlikely to happen, and so I am forced to share my concerns about this very dangerous fork.

The developers of this pretender-Bitcoin claim to be following my original vision, but nothing could be further from the truth.  When I designed Bitcoin, I designed it in such a way as to make future modifications to the consensus rules difficult without near unanimous agreement.  Bitcoin was designed to be protected from the influence of charismatic leaders, even if their name is Gavin Andresen, Barack Obama, or Satoshi Nakamoto.  Nearly everyone has to agree on a change, and they have to do it without being forced or pressured into it.  By doing a fork in this way, these developers are violating the "original vision" they claim to honour.

They use my old writings to make claims about what Bitcoin was supposed to be.  However I acknowledge that a lot has changed since that time, and new knowledge has been gained that contradicts some of my early opinions.  For example I didn't anticipate pooled mining and its effects on the security of the network.  Making Bitcoin a competitive monetary system while also preserving its security properties is not a trivial problem, and we should take more time to come up with a robust solution.  I suspect we need a better incentive for users to run nodes instead of relying solely on altruism.

If two developers can fork Bitcoin and succeed in redefining what "Bitcoin" is, in the face of widespread technical criticism and through the use of populist tactics, then I will have no choice but to declare Bitcoin a failed project.  Bitcoin was meant to be both technically and socially robust.  This present situation has been very disappointing to watch unfold.

Satoshi Nakamoto



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 56+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-08-21  3:01 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 56+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-08-19  8:25 [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT Fork Btc Drak
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2015-08-19 16:53 Adam Back
2015-08-19 17:22 ` Simon Liu
2015-08-19 18:13   ` Peter Todd
2015-08-19 23:37     ` Simon Liu
2015-08-19 17:28 ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-19 17:32 ` Btc Drak
2015-08-19 18:20   ` Peter Todd
2015-08-19 19:15     ` Btc Drak
2015-08-19 19:32       ` odinn
2015-08-19 19:48         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-08-19 19:58           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-19 20:04             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-08-19 22:00               ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-19 23:07                 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-08-19 23:27                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-19 23:56                     ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-20  1:00                       ` GC
2015-08-20  1:17                         ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-20  0:08                     ` Eric Voskuil
2015-08-19 18:22   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-19 19:12 ` Santino Napolitano
2015-08-19 19:28   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-08-20  9:00 ` Mike Hearn
2015-08-20  9:13   ` Peter Todd
2015-08-21  3:01     ` odinn
2015-08-17 20:24 Theo Chino
2015-08-18  4:56 ` Dave Scotese
2015-08-15 17:43 Satoshi Nakamoto
2015-08-15 19:08 ` Laszlo Hanyecz
2015-08-15 19:10 ` jl2012
2015-08-17 11:40 ` Oliver Egginger
2015-08-17 11:44   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-17 11:51     ` Oliver Egginger
2015-08-17 16:32       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-17 17:01         ` Oliver Egginger
2015-08-17 17:15           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-17 17:30             ` Btc Drak
2015-08-17 17:18       ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-08-17 19:14         ` Peter Todd
2015-08-17 17:28   ` Jeff Garzik
2015-08-17 19:03   ` Warren Togami Jr.
2015-08-17 20:37     ` Oliver Egginger
2015-08-18  5:16       ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-08-18  9:15       ` Warren Togami Jr.
2015-08-18 11:52         ` Micha Bailey
2015-08-18 18:57         ` Oliver Egginger
2015-08-18 20:59           ` Anon Moto
2015-08-19  1:03             ` Sergio Demian Lerner
2015-08-17 19:02 ` Anon Moto
2015-08-17 19:40   ` Marcel Jamin
2015-08-17 19:16 ` Hector Chu
2015-08-17 19:28   ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-08-17 19:39     ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-19  2:54 ` odinn
2015-08-19  2:59   ` Angel Leon

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox