[bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9

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* [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9
@ 2015-08-17 16:39 Ahmed Zsales
  2015-08-17 16:52 ` Angel Leon
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Ahmed Zsales @ 2015-08-17 16:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

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Hello,

Here we propose a long-term solution to replace mining rewards and
transactions fees.

BIP [104] is currently a discussion draft only.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBSXpoUjRkc01QUGc/view?usp=sharing

Views and feedback welcome.

Regards,

Ahmed

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* Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9
  2015-08-17 16:39 [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9 Ahmed Zsales
@ 2015-08-17 16:52 ` Angel Leon
  2015-08-17 17:16   ` Angel Leon
  2015-08-17 17:03 ` Jorge Timón
       [not found] ` <CADJgMzu-fsB5otn=2WPUKvVfz_1_Fx5HY7g+Lx_9Ak215a_KgA@mail.gmail.com>
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Angel Leon @ 2015-08-17 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ahmed Zsales; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev

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>"By increasing the size of blocks, transaction fees may not be available
to supplement mining revenue and so those who do not have access to cheap
or free power to mine;"

why?
wouldn't a bigger block size actually allow for more transactions per
block, therefore more fees to be collected, and the cost spread out among
many more users (thus still keeping tx fees low). If anything, wouldn't
bigger blocksizes are needed to suplement the losses of coinbase rewards
being halfed.

http://twitter.com/gubatron

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Ahmed Zsales via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Here we propose a long-term solution to replace mining rewards and
> transactions fees.
>
> BIP [104] is currently a discussion draft only.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBSXpoUjRkc01QUGc/view?usp=sharing
>
> Views and feedback welcome.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ahmed
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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* Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9
  2015-08-17 16:52 ` Angel Leon
@ 2015-08-17 17:16   ` Angel Leon
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Angel Leon @ 2015-08-17 17:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ahmed Zsales; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev

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so you want us to, (i) at the moment of payment decide wether to pay a tx
fee, or to include some data about what the transaction is about...
(ii) and (iii) are out of the question as you'd be forcing people to not
have privacy, which is one of the main reasons people use bitcoin, just
paying like cash.

then the rest goes down hill.

1. You want to add more data to a transaction, which would fill blocks even
faster.

2. The data will be on the blockchain, why in hell would anybody pay the
miners for it when you can just mine it yourself, or pay XYZ online service
to give you the tools you mention, and why would XYZ company pay miners for
the revenues of such service?

because... you want to change the Bitcoin license from MIT to something
else?

I'm sorry. this is dead on arrival, very unrealistic. Perhaps this will
work for some other coin where people accept all these orwellianism from
the start.

If you think there's much debate about blocksize you've no idea how things
would get at the mention of moving away from MIT into some sort of
commercial license, that would indeed destroy Bitcoin from being adopted as
it would enter into many many conflicts that would render it unusable by
lots of organizations.

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* Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9
  2015-08-17 16:39 [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9 Ahmed Zsales
  2015-08-17 16:52 ` Angel Leon
@ 2015-08-17 17:03 ` Jorge Timón
       [not found] ` <CADJgMzu-fsB5otn=2WPUKvVfz_1_Fx5HY7g+Lx_9Ak215a_KgA@mail.gmail.com>
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Jorge Timón @ 2015-08-17 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ahmed Zsales; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev

Did you self-assigned a bip number?

https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0001.mediawiki

Anyway, from your document:

"The existing (2015) Big Data analysis market is valued at around
$125bn according to market

research firm IDC. As the Bitcoin block chain replaces existing
payment systems and attracts

millions or hundreds of millions of users, the intrinsic value of the
data in the block chain

will increase and be attractive to data analytics businesses and block
chain start-ups."

Without even entering about details related to technical feasibility,
do you realize that you are proposing Bitcoin to become the most
orwellian money ever?
That this is the opposite of what many proposals and designs like
coinjoin try to achieve?

I think (hope?) that this idea doesn't have any chance of being
accepted by the Bitcoin community.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

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[parent not found: <CADr=VrQC2vix=5nOJ5PrzarfUdtvV_xzUc5YStJL05PD8KxAhg@mail.gmail.com>]

* Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9
       [not found]   ` <CADr=VrQC2vix=5nOJ5PrzarfUdtvV_xzUc5YStJL05PD8KxAhg@mail.gmail.com>
@ 2015-08-17 18:28     ` Ahmed Zsales
       [not found]     ` <CADJgMzsoTctgRC1HLRVNtc09abgz+7cFzoKBpf1_otk6LQK4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Ahmed Zsales @ 2015-08-17 18:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

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> @btc Drak, noted, thanks.
>
> 1. Updated - removed reference to self ascribed [104]
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBX3hCekFRSUVySWs/view?usp=sharing
>
>
> @Angel Leon
>
> 2. Privacy issues are clearly covered.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 6:48 PM, Btc Drak <btcdrak@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>> You cannot assign your own bip numbers. You have to use the form
>> BIP-myproposal
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Ahmed Zsales via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> Here we propose a long-term solution to replace mining rewards and
>>> transactions fees.
>>>
>>> BIP [104] is currently a discussion draft only.
>>>
>>>
>>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBSXpoUjRkc01QUGc/view?usp=sharing
>>>
>>> Views and feedback welcome.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Ahmed
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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* Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9
       [not found]     ` <CADJgMzsoTctgRC1HLRVNtc09abgz+7cFzoKBpf1_otk6LQK4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
@ 2015-08-17 23:57       ` Ahmed Zsales
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Ahmed Zsales @ 2015-08-17 23:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

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While Peter Todd's public mention on social media was likely meant to be
disparaging, I'll take the contribution of adding 'data mining' to the
title in future updates of the draft - thank you.

It might be ironic that he posted the remark on Twitter, where his message
will be aggregated and sold by twitter to data miners.

Twitter made $48m last year from selling data to data miners, at a 95%
growth rate on year-on-year basis. It has since spent $130m on buying a
data mining business who specialise in understanding how to mine data in
order to grow this part of their business. It is one of their more
profitable sideshows.



On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Btc Drak <btcdrak@gmail•com> wrote:

> You didnt reply to the list, I had emailed you privately.
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 7:22 PM, Ahmed Zsales <ahmedzsales18@gmail•com>
> wrote:
> > @btc Drak, noted, thanks.
> >
> > 1. Updated - removed reference to self ascribed [104]
> >
> >
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBX3hCekFRSUVySWs/view?usp=sharing
> >
> >
> > @Angel Leon
> >
> > 2. Privacy issues are clearly covered.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 6:48 PM, Btc Drak <btcdrak@gmail•com> wrote:
> >>
> >> You cannot assign your own bip numbers. You have to use the form
> >> BIP-myproposal
> >>
> >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Ahmed Zsales via bitcoin-dev
> >> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> Here we propose a long-term solution to replace mining rewards and
> >>> transactions fees.
> >>>
> >>> BIP [104] is currently a discussion draft only.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBSXpoUjRkc01QUGc/view?usp=sharing
> >>>
> >>> Views and feedback welcome.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Ahmed
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> >>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >>>
> >>
> >
>

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* Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 104: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9
       [not found] <CADr=VrRa7j4Rd__v7HK3hiVD=GGmm1X1LcE25Hn=7AC_rzAreg@mail.gmail.com>
@ 2015-08-22 11:01 ` Ahmed Zsales
  2015-08-23  6:51   ` Jorge Timón
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Ahmed Zsales @ 2015-08-22 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bitcoin Dev

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Hello,

In response to public and private comments and feedback, we have updated
this working draft.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBOUVtOHJQdlhvUmc/view?usp=sharing

Update highlights:

1. Specific clarifications on replacing the Coinbase subsidy and
supplementing *and* not replacing transaction fees.

2. Clarification on block chain overhead. The value of data mining is on a
bell curve, so year six data will be removed every year.

3. Added references to an ability to create global, national and regional
Bitcoin Price Indices for popular baskets of goods transacted with Bitcoin.

4. Added references for an ability to use structured block chain data for
Bitcoin capacity and fork planning.

5. Removed references to price speculation.

6. Added preferences for deployment dates of January 2017 or January 2018.

7. Moving towards BIP format after discussion and evaluation period.
Technical content will increase in due course and discussion content will
be removed.

Further views and feedback welcome.

Regards,

Ahmed

On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Ahmed Zsales <ahmedzsales18@gmail•com>
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Here we propose a long-term solution to replace mining rewards and
> transactions fees.
>
> BIP 104 is currently a discussion draft only.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBSXpoUjRkc01QUGc/view?usp=sharing
>
> Views and feedback welcome.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ahmed
>
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

* Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 104: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9
  2015-08-22 11:01 ` [bitcoin-dev] BIP 104: " Ahmed Zsales
@ 2015-08-23  6:51   ` Jorge Timón
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Jorge Timón @ 2015-08-23  6:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ahmed Zsales; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev

Again, did you got a bip number asigned or did you self-assigned it yourself?

On Sat, Aug 22, 2015 at 1:01 PM, Ahmed Zsales via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> In response to public and private comments and feedback, we have updated
> this working draft.
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBOUVtOHJQdlhvUmc/view?usp=sharing
>
> Update highlights:
>
> 1. Specific clarifications on replacing the Coinbase subsidy and
> supplementing and not replacing transaction fees.
>
> 2. Clarification on block chain overhead. The value of data mining is on a
> bell curve, so year six data will be removed every year.
>
> 3. Added references to an ability to create global, national and regional
> Bitcoin Price Indices for popular baskets of goods transacted with Bitcoin.
>
> 4. Added references for an ability to use structured block chain data for
> Bitcoin capacity and fork planning.
>
> 5. Removed references to price speculation.
>
> 6. Added preferences for deployment dates of January 2017 or January 2018.
>
> 7. Moving towards BIP format after discussion and evaluation period.
> Technical content will increase in due course and discussion content will be
> removed.
>
> Further views and feedback welcome.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ahmed
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Ahmed Zsales <ahmedzsales18@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Here we propose a long-term solution to replace mining rewards and
>> transactions fees.
>>
>> BIP 104 is currently a discussion draft only.
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBSXpoUjRkc01QUGc/view?usp=sharing
>>
>> Views and feedback welcome.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ahmed
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

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Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-08-17 16:39 [bitcoin-dev] BIP [104]: Replace Transaction Fees with Data, Discussion Draft 0.2.9 Ahmed Zsales
2015-08-17 16:52 ` Angel Leon
2015-08-17 17:16   ` Angel Leon
2015-08-17 17:03 ` Jorge Timón
     [not found] ` <CADJgMzu-fsB5otn=2WPUKvVfz_1_Fx5HY7g+Lx_9Ak215a_KgA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]   ` <CADr=VrQC2vix=5nOJ5PrzarfUdtvV_xzUc5YStJL05PD8KxAhg@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-17 18:28     ` Ahmed Zsales
     [not found]     ` <CADJgMzsoTctgRC1HLRVNtc09abgz+7cFzoKBpf1_otk6LQK4Fg@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-17 23:57       ` Ahmed Zsales
     [not found] <CADr=VrRa7j4Rd__v7HK3hiVD=GGmm1X1LcE25Hn=7AC_rzAreg@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-22 11:01 ` [bitcoin-dev] BIP 104: " Ahmed Zsales
2015-08-23  6:51   ` Jorge Timón

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