> Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block headers > and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely > harmful to the security of Bitcoin. If it's only during the few seconds that it takes to to verify the block, then would this really be that big of a deal? E.g. even if all miners did this, a 10 second delay would only yield an average of a couple blind/empty blocks per day. On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving > small miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait > for the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. This > results in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most > blocks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quickly > than the smaller miners. > > Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block headers > and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely > harmful to the security of Bitcoin. > > > On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach > wrote: > >As soon as we switch to headers > >first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation > >time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required > >to > >propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the > >block is > >fully validated. > >On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Levin" > > > >wrote: > > > >> Hi all, > >> > >> I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of > >> mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I > >think it > >> is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at > >play and > >> determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market. > >> > >> As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does > >not > >> stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and > >> including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the > >> increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of > >slower > >> propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case > >calculations > >> but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason > >being the > >> 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout > >the > >> time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time > >miners are > >> notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence > >are no > >> longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block. > >> > >> I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the > >probability > >> mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second > >as a > >> function of the block size. Although there is likely to be > >significant > >> noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with > >the > >> time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done > >this? I > >> have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I > >would > >> like analytical solutions. > >> > >> Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that > >propagation > >> delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing > >power. > >> Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large > >> blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would > >increase > >> orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not > >> invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner > >hears > >> about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance > >that > >> there is already a block in circulation. Large miners can increase > >the > >> time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by > >increasing the > >> size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a > >small > >> miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent > >> chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner. > >There > >> is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published > >after > >> a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full > >propagation. Am I > >> getting this right that the probability of a miner’s block being > >orphaned > >> is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to > >find a > >> valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone > >else in > >> the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block. > >> > >> One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after > >hearing > >> about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know > >in > >> advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have > >just > >> found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan? > >> > >> Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any > >> feedback. > >> > >> Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to > >capture > >> information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions > >of any > >> other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of > >software. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Jonathan > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, < > >> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> < > >> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > >> > >> > Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to > >> > bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > > >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > >> > > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > >> > bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > > >> > You can reach the person managing the list at > >> > bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > > >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> > than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..." > >> > > >> > > >> > Today's Topics: > >> > > >> > 1. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Oliver Egginger) > >> > 2. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Christophe Biocca) > >> > 3. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Gmail) > >> > 4. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Mike Caldwell) > >> > 5. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Justin A) > >> > > >> > > >> > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> > > >> > Message: 1 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200 > >> > From: Oliver Egginger > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > To: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: <5354154C.1080908@olivere.de> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > > >> > Hello, > >> > > >> > just my two 'cents': > >> > > >> > Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when > >they > >> > mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use > >> > except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has > >> > established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. > >> > > >> > - oliver > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 2 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400 > >> > From: Christophe Biocca > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > To: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: > >> > >> TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A@mail.gmail.com> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > >> > > >> > Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with > >slang > >> > for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means > >"louse" > >> > in Turkish as well. > >> > > >> > Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all > >the > >> > short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. > >> > > >> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > > > >> wrote: > >> >> Hello, > >> >> > >> >> just my two 'cents': > >> >> > >> >> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when > >they > >> >> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common > >use > >> >> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has > >> >> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. > >> >> > >> >> - oliver > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> their > >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 3 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500 > >> > From: Gmail > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> > > >> > People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea > >of > >> using the word "credit" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not > >a > >> credit-based system. > >> > > >> > However, given that the average person has close to no > >understanding of > >> what "credit" means, and probably no concern for the distinction even > >if > >> they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily > >> understandable "credit" as our human-friendly unit. > >> > > >> > Do others agree that "credits" as a unit of account has a desirable > >> futuristic connotation? > >> > > >> > Will > >> > > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > >> > Name: smime.p7s > >> > Type: application/pkcs7-signature > >> > Size: 1593 bytes > >> > Desc: not available > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 4 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400 > >> > From: Mike Caldwell > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > To: Christophe Biocca > >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: <4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56B41ED@swipeclock.com> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> > > >> > By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a > >cultural > >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference to > >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of > >who > >> Satoshi turns out to be. > >> > > >> > Mike > >> > > >> > Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> >> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" < > >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with > >slang > >> >> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means > >"louse" > >> >> in Turkish as well. > >> >> > >> >> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all > >the > >> >> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. > >> >> > >> >>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > > > >> wrote: > >> >>> Hello, > >> >>> > >> >>> just my two 'cents': > >> >>> > >> >>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when > >they > >> >>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common > >use > >> >>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has > >> >>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. > >> >>> > >> >>> - oliver > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> their > >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> their > >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > Message: 5 > >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400 > >> > From: Justin A > >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account > >> > To: Mike Caldwell > >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development > >> > Message-ID: > >> > < > >> CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh+7r96UkxZwneQ@mail.gmail.com> > >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > What about "ubit", pronounced "YOU-bit", representing 1e-6 bitcoin? > >Easy > >> to > >> > say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required > >2 > >> > decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one > >want? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern > >> hemisphere > >> > winter if I can learn enough. > >> > On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Caldwell" > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a > >cultural > >> >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference > >to > >> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless > >of who > >> >> Satoshi turns out to be. > >> >> > >> >> Mike > >> >> > >> >> Sent from my iPhone > >> >> > >> >>> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" < > >> >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with > >slang > >> >>> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means > >"louse" > >> >>> in Turkish as well. > >> >>> > >> >>> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all > >the > >> >>> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. > >> >>> > >> >>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger > > > >> >> wrote: > >> >>>> Hello, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> just my two 'cents': > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when > >they > >> >>>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common > >use > >> >>>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has > >> >>>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> - oliver > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> >> their > >> >>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >>>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> >> their > >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >>> _______________________________________________ > >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book > >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases > >and > >> their > >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, > >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book > >today! > >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> >> > >> > -------------- next part -------------- > >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > >> > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > >> > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > >> > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration > >Platform > >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > >> > > >> > ------------------------------ > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > > >> > > >> > End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72 > >> > *************************************************** > >> > >> > >> > >> > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > >> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > >> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > >> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Bitcoin-development mailing list > >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > >> > >> > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > >Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > >Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > >Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > >http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Bitcoin-development mailing list > >Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: APG v1.1.1 > > iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTVJlDMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 > cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhTbNB/4lHTsUN/iee7H0UyBn > +TDRgf1BSoUx9HP+vtwXzS0JkVQoxoB5x4Pls+ex7qIXGNxdG9EPYi1RqQ5A8RUo > X2ntOL2pj6qTmW4aYxqqyihiQayLs5ixHPmJxqHv343g5ekqsKmBeDuWR4hXjUyZ > 0Pfcp40Xd3eJ38dSbq98letl5eD+ryBPKYtb91Trumqa9S0WB8kw9IqNaXjlpfG1 > lYuaVEllpaLpZW+4cx1mlPneS1GmLvloWhXf4Qh4X39VXECAjOAmNKh1atJCyT7H > ugkOcx1F2Rxo5P3jNzBRJKyAD96sbOhKm4sX7rzSjhT3WJgyHtJm3wkeluDCOVbR > QZqK > =R7Tv > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >