From: Ryan Butler <rryananizer@gmail•com>
To: Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph•org>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Capacity increases for the Bitcoin system.
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 00:36:22 -0600 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAF_2MyWd7a5_yJt8D1uY7V-QqWYCcigR0ubuJwoyxz=yAyMpVw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAAS2fgS-jjEVeHf_LErppTadtAaSeBum+KiGHpoo=Jz5BZArsQ@mail.gmail.com>
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I see, thanks for clearing that up, I misread what Gavin stated.
On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 12:29 AM, Gregory Maxwell <greg@xiph•org> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 4:44 AM, Ryan Butler <rryananizer@gmail•com> wrote:
> >>I agree, but nothing I have advocated creates significant technical
> >>debt. It is also a bad engineering practice to combine functional
> >>changes (especially ones with poorly understood system wide
> >>consequences and low user autonomy) with structural tidying.
> >
> > I don't think I would classify placing things in consensus critical code
> > when it doesn't need to be as "structural tidying". Gavin said "pile on"
> > which you took as implying "a lot", he can correct me, but I believe he
> > meant "add to".
>
> Nothing being discussed would move something from consensus critical
> code to not consensus critical.
>
> What was being discussed was the location of the witness commitment;
> which is consensus critical regardless of where it is placed. Should
> it be placed in an available location which is compatible with the
> existing network, or should the block hashing data structure
> immediately be changed in an incompatible way to accommodate it in
> order to satisfy an ascetic sense of purity and to make fraud proofs
> somewhat smaller?
>
> I argue that the size difference in the fraud proofs is not
> interesting, the disruption to the network in an incompatible upgrade
> is interesting; and that if it really were desirable reorganization to
> move the commitment point could be done as part of a separate change
> that changes only the location of things (and/or other trivial
> adjustments); and that proceeding int this fashion would minimize
> disruption and risk... by making the incompatible changes that will
> force network wide software updates be as small and as simple as
> possible.
>
> >> (especially ones with poorly understood system wide consequences and low
> >> user autonomy)
> >
> > This implies there you have no confidence in the unit tests and
> functional
> > testing around Bitcoin and should not be a reason to avoid refactoring.
> > It's more a reason to increase testing so that you will have confidence
> when
> > you refactor.
>
> I am speaking from our engineering experience in a public,
> world-wide, multi-vendor, multi-version, inter-operable, distributed
> system which is constantly changing and in production contains private
> code, unknown and assorted hardware, mixtures of versions, unreliable
> networks, undisclosed usage patterns, and more sources of complex
> behavior than can be counted-- including complex economic incentives
> and malicious participants.
>
> Even if we knew the complete spectrum of possible states for the
> system the combinatioric explosion makes complete testing infeasible.
>
> Though testing is essential one cannot "unit test" away all the risks
> related to deploying a new behavior in the network.
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-12-09 6:36 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 56+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-12-07 22:02 Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-07 22:54 ` Bryan Bishop
2015-12-08 2:42 ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-08 4:58 ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-08 5:21 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-08 6:54 ` Anthony Towns
2016-01-18 12:02 ` Anthony Towns
2016-01-22 9:46 ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-08 11:07 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan
2015-12-08 11:14 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-08 15:12 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-12-08 15:55 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-12-08 17:41 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-08 18:43 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-12-08 19:08 ` Tier Nolan
2015-12-08 19:31 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-08 23:40 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-08 23:48 ` Luke Dashjr
2015-12-09 0:54 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-08 23:50 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09 0:56 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-08 23:59 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09 0:58 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09 1:02 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09 1:09 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-12-09 1:31 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09 4:44 ` Ryan Butler
2015-12-09 6:29 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09 6:36 ` Ryan Butler [this message]
2015-12-09 6:59 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-09 7:17 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09 7:54 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09 8:03 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-12-09 8:46 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-09 11:08 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-09 16:40 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-12-11 16:18 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-11 16:43 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-12-12 5:13 ` digitsu
2015-12-12 15:18 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-14 11:21 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-14 12:44 ` Adam Back
2015-12-09 4:51 ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-09 14:51 ` Chris
[not found] ` <CAPWm=eUomq6SBC0ky0WSs5=_G942vigm4RmgYuq0O-yJ-vqC2A@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <CAPg+sBig9O5+he0PWhTkX5iin14QLz5+eCCu6KfwU=DxntKYtg@mail.gmail.com>
2015-12-21 4:33 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-12-21 4:42 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-12-21 4:44 ` Alex Morcos
2015-12-21 4:50 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-12-21 5:29 ` Douglas Roark
2015-12-21 5:21 ` Btc Drak
2015-12-21 8:07 ` Anthony Towns
2015-12-21 9:56 ` Jorge Timón
2015-12-08 23:48 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-09 0:23 ` Gregory Maxwell
[not found] ` <CAAS2fgRP8bLWZoKR9-iJS-2RKTGQQ9NG-LpAfa2BOdcR=GuB_A@mail.gmail.com>
2015-12-09 0:40 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-09 12:28 Daniele Pinna
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