Hi Greg,

>Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains allows miners to steal bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.

If I put my coins in an anyone can spend output, a miner will take them. They can do this today. I suggest you try it if you don't believe me :-). You have to be more specific with contract types instead of generically talking about 'all contracts ever'.

> Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security guarantees. This you have not denied.

I think this is an unfair characterization. You have to opt into using drivechains. Other outputs such as P2PKH/Multisig etc are unaffected by a drivechain output. As Pieter Wuille stated earlier in this thread (and Paul has stated all along), drivechain outputs have a different security model than other contracts. Namely they are controlled by miners. I think we can all agree this is unfortunate, but it is the current reality we live in. I look forward to the day we can solve the 'ownership' problem so we can have trustless interoperable blockchains, but that day is not today.

As a reminder, most users will not have to go through the drivechain withdrawal process. Most withdrawals will be done via atomic swaps.

>There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.

Care to share? I'm unaware if there is.

>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014600.html

Everyone should re-read this email though, this is something that could happen. Paul's design makes it so that if this occurs it is *VERY* obvious. I guess we can argue if there is any difference between an obvious robbery vs a hidden robbery, but I think if we have to pick one or the other the choice is clear to me. Other designs (that I'm aware of) for sidechains had attack vectors that weren't so obvious.

-Chris



On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 6:12 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Paul,

There is a difference between replying to an email, and addressing the issues that were brought up in it.

I did read your reply, and I chose not to respond to it because it did not address anything I said.

Here's an example:

It would not be accurate to say that miners have "total" control. Miners
do control the destination of withdrawals, but they do not control the
withdrawal-duration nor the withdrawal-frequency.

So, if miners wish to 'steal' from a sidechain, they _can_ initiate a
theft, but they can not change the fact that their malfeasance will be
[a] obvious, and [b] on display for a long period of time.

Here, you admit that the security of the sidechains allows miners to steal bitcoins, something they cannot do currently.

You next tried to equate three different types of theft, what you called "Classic Theft", "Channel Theft", and "Drivechain Theft", saying:

I do not think that any of the three stands out as being categorically
worse than the others

To anyone who understands bitcoin, there is a very clear, unmistakeable difference between double-spending ("Classic Theft"), and *ownership* of the private key controlling the bitcoins.

Similarly, to anyone who understands bitcoin, there is also a very clear, unmistakeable difference between censorship ("Channel Theft"), and *ownership* of the private key controlling the bitcoins.

The entire email was a very long-form way of admitting to all of the issues that were raised in the previous email, while making it sound like you had addressed the issues.

I am not sure how else to respond to that email, given that none of the issues were really addressed.

Drivechain is an unmistakeable weakening of Bitcoin's security guarantees. This you have not denied.

There is no reason to weaken Bitcoin's security in such a dramatic fashion. Better options are being worked on, they just take time.

Kind regards,
Greg Slepak

--

Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA.

On Jul 11, 2017, at 3:57 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:

On 7/11/2017 6:41 PM, Tao Effect wrote:
Dear Paul,

Drivechain has several issues that you've acknowledged but have not,
IMO, adequately (at all really) addressed [1].

I replied to your email at length, at [2]. You should read that email,
and then reply to it with your outstanding objections, if you still have
them (per the usual customs of a mailing list).

[2]
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-June/014609.html

Adopting DC would be an irreversible course of action,

This is false -- it is easily reversible with a second soft fork.

Also, I would say to everyone that, (in my opinion as the OP) this
conversation will go off-topic if it veers exclusively into 'drivechain
review'.

Paul





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