I've created a thread on reddit where we can continue the conversation: https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinDiscussion/comments/o8dvlo/bitcoindev_opinion_on_proof_of_stake_in_future/ On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 9:59 AM greg m wrote: > Where do we go from here? reddit? > > Happy Friday everyone! > gm > > On Jun 25, 2021 12:08, Ruben Somsen via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Thanks for the lively discussion. On behalf of the bitcoin-dev moderators > and with the readers of this mailing list in mind, we'd like to suggest > finishing up this discussion. Of course there should be some room for > exploring fringe ideas, but it should not dominate the mailing list either. > Fun as it may be, perhaps it's time to get back to focusing on the topics > that are more directly relevant to Bitcoin. > > Cheers, > Ruben > > On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 9:29 AM yanmaani--- via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > No, that's not how it works. > > PoS is constitutionally incapable of producing any further consensus > from its starting point. If you start out by hardcoding the bitcoin > ledger state at June 1, 2021, then your PoS system will be unable to > reach a global consensus as to what the state was on June 2, 2021. > > To get global consensus in PoS, you have to know which block came first. > To reach a consensus on which block was first, you need to solve the > timestamp problem. And to solve the timestamp problem, you need a > consensus system. You'll notice that at no point does PoS provide such a > consensus system. > > Implementations of PoS sacrifice global consensus for 'weak > subjectivity', meaning that each node has its own notion of when a > certain block arrived. Astute observers will note that 'each node has > its own notion of what happened' differs somewhat from 'all nodes agree > on what happened', and that only one of these is a good description of > what is commonly known as 'consensus'. > > Maybe a simpler way of looking at it is from the coder's perspective: > how do you implement IBD? In PoW, the "longest chain" rule is used - > "Nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the > proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone.". > Does PoS have this property? > > On 2021-06-24 21:50, Erik Aronesty wrote: > >> PoS is not suitable for use as a consensus system, because > > it is constitutionally incapable of producing a consensus. > > > > true - but only for a system that is starting from nothing. > > > > since bitcoin already exists, and we have a consensus, you can use > > bitcoin's existing consensus to maintain that consensus using > > references to prior state. and yes, you simply have to limit reorgs > > to not go back before PoW was abandoned in favor of PoS/PoB (assuming > > all incentive problems are solved). > > > > ie: once you have uses PoW to bootstrap the system, you can "recycle" > > that work. > > > > On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 4:41 PM yanmaani--- via bitcoin-dev > > wrote: > >> > >> No, 51% of the *coin holders* can't do diddly squat. 51% of miners > >> can, > >> but in PoW, that's a different set to the coin holders. > >> > >> The basic problem with PoS, anyway, is that it's not actually a > >> consensus system ("weak subjectivity"). Either you allow long reorgs, > >> and then you open the door to long-range attacks, or you don't, and > >> then > >> you're not guaranteed that all nodes agree on the state of the chain, > >> which was the purpose of the system to begin with. > >> > >> To put it more plainly: for PoS to work, you need a consensus on which > >> block was seen first. But if you had that, you could presumably apply > >> that method to determine which *transaction* was seen first, in which > >> case you could do away with the blockchain entirely. (Real-world > >> implementations of PoS, such that they are, do away with this > >> requirement, scrapping the global consensus on ordering in favor of > >> having each node decide for itself which block came first.) > >> > >> In other words, even if you solved all the incentive problems, the > >> fact > >> remains that PoS is not suitable for use as a consensus system, > >> because > >> it is constitutionally incapable of producing a consensus. > >> > >> On 2021-06-24 00:14, Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev wrote: > >> >> This is not true in a Proof of Work system and this difference > >> > absolutely should not be trivialized. > >> > > >> > That is in fact true of Proof of Work as well. If a colluding > >> > coalition of miners with more than 50% of the hashrate want to censor > >> > transactions, they absolutely can do that by orphaning blocks that > >> > contain transactions they want to censor. This is not different in > >> > proof of stake. > >> > > >> > On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 11:14 AM Keagan McClelland > >> > wrote: > >> > > >> >>> Premise: There is a healthy exchange market for PoS Coin X with > >> >> tens of thousands of participants bidding to buy and sell the coin > >> >> for other currencies on the market. > >> >> > >> >> The difference here though is that Proof of Stake allows the quorum > >> >> of coin holders to block the exchange of said coins if they are > >> >> going to a particular destination. Nothing requires these staking > >> >> nodes to include particular transactions into a block. With that in > >> >> mind, it isn't just that you require the permission of the person > >> >> who sold you the coins, which I can agree is a less dangerous form > >> >> of permission, but you must also require the permission of at least > >> >> 51% of the coin holders to even receive those coins in the first > >> >> place. This is not true in a Proof of Work system and this > >> >> difference absolutely should not be trivialized. > >> >> > >> >> Keagan > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 2:30 AM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous > >> >> owner of a token > >> >> > >> >> The idea that proof of stake is not permissionless is completely > >> >> invalid. It pains me to see such an argument here. Perhaps we can > >> >> come to an agreement by being more specific. I'd like to propose the > >> >> following: > >> >> > >> >> Premise: There is a healthy exchange market for PoS Coin X with tens > >> >> of thousands of participants bidding to buy and sell the coin for > >> >> other currencies on the market. > >> >> > >> >> If the premise above is true, then there is no significant > >> >> permission needed to enter the market for minting blocks for PoS > >> >> Coin X. If you make a bid on someone's coins and they don't like you > >> >> and refuse, you can move on to any one of the other tens of > >> >> thousands of people in that marketplace. Would you agree, Cloud > >> >> Strife, that this situation couldn't be considered "permissioned"? > >> >> > >> >> If not, consider that participation in *any* decentralized system > >> >> requires the permission of at least one user in that system. If > >> >> there are thousands of bitcoin public nodes, you require the > >> >> permission of at least one of them to participate in bitcoin. No one > >> >> considers bitcoin "permissioned" because of this. Do you agree? > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 1:15 PM Cloud Strife via bitcoin-dev > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Barrier to entry in PoW is matter for hardware and energy is > >> >> permissionless and exist all over the universe, permissionless cost > >> >> which exists for everyone no matter who because it's unforgeable. > >> >> > >> >> Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous > >> >> owner of a token for you to have it via transfer or sale, both > >> >> choices they never have to make since there are no continuous costs > >> >> with producing blocks forcing it. A permission is an infinitely high > >> >> barrier to entry if the previous owner, like the premining party, > >> >> refuses to give up the token they control. > >> >> > >> >> You're skipping the part where you depend on a permission of a > >> >> central party in control of the authority token before you can > >> >> produce blocks on your rasberry Pi. > >> >> > >> >> Proof of stake is not in any possible way relevant to permissionless > >> >> protocols, and thus not possibly relevant to decentralized protocols > >> >> where control must be distributed to independent (i.e. > >> >> permissionless) parties. > >> >> > >> >> There's nothing of relevance to discuss and this has been figured > >> >> out long long ago. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:13 AM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> @Lloyd wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Of course in reality no one wants to keep their coin holding keys > >> >> online so in Alogorand you can authorize a set of "participation > >> >> keys"[1] that will be used to create blocks on your coin holding > >> >> key's behalf. > >> >> Hopefully you've spotted the problem. > >> >> You can send your participation keys to any malicious party with a > >> >> nice website (see random example [2]) offering you a good return. > >> >> Damn it's still Proof-of-SquareSpace! > >> >> > >> >> I believe we are talking about a comparison to PoW, correct? If you > >> >> want to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive hardware and configure > >> >> it to work, and wait a long time to get any return by solo mining. > >> >> Or you can join a mining pool, which might use your hashing power > >> >> for nefarious purposes. Or you might skip the hardware all together > >> >> and fall for some "cloud mining" scheme with a pretty website and a > >> >> high rate of advertised return. So as you can see, > >> >> Proof-of-SquareSpace exists in PoW as well! > >> >> > >> >> The PoS equivalent of buying mining hardware is setting up your own > >> >> validator and not outsourcing that to anyone else. So both PoW and > >> >> PoS have the professional/expert way of participating, and the > >> >> fraud-prone, amateur way of participating. The only difference is, > >> >> with PoS the professional/expert way is accessible to anyone with a > >> >> raspberry Pi and a web connection, which is a much lower barrier to > >> >> entry than PoW. _______________________________________________ > >> >> bitcoin-dev mailing list > >> >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > >> >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > bitcoin-dev mailing list > >> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > >> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > bitcoin-dev mailing list > >> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > >> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > bitcoin-dev mailing list > >> > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > >> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > >> _______________________________________________ > >> bitcoin-dev mailing list > >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > > >