Re: [bitcoin-dev] Card Shuffle To Bitcoin Seed

From: James MacWhyte <macwhyte@gmail•com>
To: Alan Evans <thealanevans@gmail•com>,
	 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Card Shuffle To Bitcoin Seed
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 18:42:55 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAH+Axy5GFyPNh1SYckiYBQESVLr9mUrzODYV77yywbN2v=LUrg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALPhJayXz4WsMnmd=8LeGVBDGbvLmHmFdvPWzd9aX_0ktaZ4WA@mail.gmail.com>

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Oooh, that's cool. I didn't realize Ian's support for cards looks so slick
now!

Thanks for the image.

James

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 7:55 AM Alan Evans via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Image didn't seem to attach:
> [image: image.png]
>
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2019 at 09:48, Alan Evans <thealanevans@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>> It's not quite enough to just do SHA512, you missed out this condition
>> (incredibly rare as it is):
>>
>> > In case IL is 0 or ≥n, the master key is invalid.
>>
>> Also I can't see how I would use this to seed a hardware wallet that
>> requires a BIP39 seed as mentioned in your abstract.
>>
>> For both of those reasons, you may want to just invent/formalize a scheme
>> that takes Cards -> Entropy.
>> From that Entropy one can generate BIP39, and non-BIP39 fans can just
>> continue, generate and store their root xprv.
>>
>> Prior art: Note that Ian Coleman's BIP39 site already supports Cards (and
>> Dice), see the logic here:
>> https://github.com/iancoleman/bip39/blob/master/src/js/entropy.js
>>
>> [image: image.png]
>>
>> Note it detected "full deck". It also calculates the Total Bits of
>> Entropy and can handle card replacement and multiple decks.
>>
>> PS, you're a bit out on your entropy calculation, log2(52!) ~= 225.58
>> bits, not 219.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 at 02:08, Devrandom via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I would suggest 50+ 6-sided dice rolls, giving about 128 bits of
>>> entropy.  Compared to a shuffle, it's easier to be sure that you got the
>>> right amount of entropy, even if the dice are somewhat biased.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 2:33 PM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev <
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> James
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 10:27 AM Ryan Havar via bitcoin-dev <
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Conveniently a shuffled deck of cards also can serve as a physical
>>>>> backup which is easy to hide in plain sight with great plausible
>>>>> deniability.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To make sure someone doesn't play with your cards and mix up the order,
>>>> use a permanent marker to draw a diagonal line on the side of the deck from
>>>> corner to corner. If the cards ever get mixed up, you can put them back in
>>>> order by making sure the diagonal line matches up.
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