From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com>
To: Alex Morcos <morcos@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase
Date: Thu, 7 May 2015 11:09:18 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0MB8Hh-7np8EpFMj0jioNpxH_D-C=KZrt_Ri6p_Bovc5w@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAPWm=eUFe7dKJCLeNACZ4n9vw0Xj9rHVM_RRLSczGXNU-ShR2w@mail.gmail.com>
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100% agree, RE hard forks should be hard.
However, it is the paradox of growth, morale and adoption that bitcoin
might never reach the point where it is saturated & expensive to the point
where larger blocks are demanded by 95%+... simply because people and
companies chose not to adopt bitcoin in the first place due to an unmoving,
[perceived | real] scalability roadblock.
On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 11:04 AM, Alex Morcos <morcos@gmail•com> wrote:
> That strikes me as a dangerous path forward.
>
> I don't actually think there is anything wrong with this: "everybody
> eventually gets tired of arguing angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin, and
> we're left with the status quo"
>
> What gives Bitcoin value aren't its technical merits but the fact that
> people believe in it. The biggest risk here isn't that 20MB blocks will
> be bad or that 1MB blocks will be bad, but that by forcing a hard fork that
> isn't nearly universally agreed upon, we will be damaging that belief. If
> I strongly believed some hard fork would be better for Bitcoin, say
> permanent inflation of 1% a year to fund mining, and I managed to convince
> 80% of users, miners, businesses and developers to go along with me, I
> would still vote against doing it. Because that's not nearly universal
> agreement, and it changes what people chose to believe in without their
> consent. Forks should be hard, very hard. And both sides should recognize
> that belief in the value of Bitcoin might be a fragile thing. I'd argue
> that if we didn't force through a 20MB fork now, and we ran into major
> network difficulties a year from now and had no other technical solutions,
> that maybe we would get nearly universal agreement, and the businesses and
> users that were driven away by the unusable system would be a short term
> loss in value considerably smaller than the impairment we risk by forcing a
> change.
>
>
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 10:52 AM, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>
>> For reference: the blog post that (re)-started this debate, and which
>> links to individual issues, is here:
>> http://gavinandresen.ninja/time-to-roll-out-bigger-blocks
>>
>> In it, I asked people to email me objections I might have missed. I would
>> still appreciate it if people do that; it is impossible to keep up with
>> this mailing list, /r/bitcoin posts and comments, and #bitcoin-wizards and
>> also have time to respond thoughtfully to the objections raised.
>>
>> I would very much like to find some concrete course of action that we can
>> come to consensus on. Some compromise so we can tell entrepreneurs "THIS is
>> how much transaction volume the main Bitcoin blockchain will be able to
>> support over the next eleven years."
>>
>> I've been pretty clear on what I think is a reasonable compromise (a
>> one-time increase scheduled for early next year), and I have tried to
>> explain why I think it it is the right set of tradeoffs.
>>
>> There ARE tradeoffs here, and the hard question is what process do we use
>> to decide those tradeoffs? How do we come to consensus? Is it worth my
>> time to spend hours responding thoughtfully to every new objection raised
>> here, or will the same thing happen that happened last year and the year
>> before-- everybody eventually gets tired of arguing
>> angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin, and we're left with the status quo?
>>
>> I AM considering contributing some version of the bigger blocksize-limit
>> hard-fork patch to the Bitcoin-Xt fork (probably "target a hobbyist with a
>> fast Internet connection, and assume Nelson's law to increase over time),
>> and then encouraging merchants and exchanges and web wallets and
>> individuals who think it strikes a reasonable balance to run it.
>>
>> And then, assuming it became a super-majority of nodes on the network,
>> encourage miners to roll out a soft-fork to start producing bigger blocks
>> and eventually trigger the hard fork.
>>
>> Because ultimately consensus comes down to what software people choose to
>> run.
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Gavin Andresen
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-05-07 15:09 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 116+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-05-06 22:12 Matt Corallo
2015-05-06 22:30 ` slush
2015-05-06 23:06 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-05-06 22:44 ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-06 23:12 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-06 23:33 ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-06 23:41 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 2:16 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-06 23:11 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-05-06 23:13 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 0:00 ` Tom Harding
2015-05-07 0:07 ` Bryan Bishop
2015-05-07 0:37 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-05-07 1:49 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 3:03 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-08 11:02 ` Thomas Zander
2015-05-08 20:17 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-05-07 3:47 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-05-07 9:25 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 10:12 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 10:42 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 10:52 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 11:15 ` Andrew
2015-05-07 11:29 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 12:26 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 14:05 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 14:18 ` Bryan Bishop
2015-05-07 14:22 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 14:40 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 14:52 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-07 14:56 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 15:04 ` Alex Morcos
2015-05-07 15:09 ` Jeff Garzik [this message]
2015-05-07 15:12 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 15:17 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:29 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 15:35 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 16:18 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 16:21 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 17:29 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 19:37 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 19:44 ` Jérémie Dubois-Lacoste
2015-05-07 20:20 ` Jérémie Dubois-Lacoste
2015-05-07 15:58 ` Matthew Mitchell
2015-05-07 16:47 ` Matthew Mitchell
2015-05-07 17:26 ` Matt Corallo
[not found] ` <CABsx9T2vAQyZODRE9apu0R1n=LybssQcuTYD7P3mAQH_Fv6QCQ@mail.gmail.com>
2015-05-07 17:40 ` [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: " Gavin Andresen
2015-05-07 17:43 ` [Bitcoin-development] " Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 18:03 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 18:06 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 18:21 ` Ross Nicoll
2015-05-07 18:40 ` Gavin Costin
2015-05-07 18:46 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 19:31 ` Bernard Rihn
2015-05-07 19:31 ` Alan Reiner
2015-05-07 19:54 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 19:59 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-08 1:40 ` Tom Harding
2015-05-08 2:09 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-08 5:13 ` Tom Harding
2015-05-08 9:43 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-08 15:23 ` Alan Reiner
2015-05-08 14:59 ` Alan Reiner
2015-05-08 15:49 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-13 10:37 ` Oliver Egginger
2015-05-13 11:25 ` Angel Leon
2015-05-08 17:17 ` Andrew
2015-05-08 17:51 ` Alan Reiner
[not found] ` <CADZB0_bK+YsK8sN-di2pynvjsq5VjSvnEu0-cCGhPqFunyVm7Q@mail.gmail.com>
2015-05-09 12:02 ` Andrew
2015-05-09 12:53 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-09 18:33 ` Andrew
2015-05-08 1:51 ` Joel Joonatan Kaartinen
2015-05-08 3:41 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 18:38 ` Chris Wardell
2015-05-07 18:55 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-05-07 18:59 ` Ross Nicoll
2015-05-07 19:03 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 19:13 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 19:34 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 21:29 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 23:05 ` 21E14
2015-05-07 15:33 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 16:11 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 16:47 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 16:59 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-07 17:42 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 18:05 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 19:57 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 15:39 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 13:02 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 19:14 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 11:55 ` Dave Hudson
2015-05-07 13:40 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-08 4:46 ` Tom Harding
2015-05-07 14:04 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 14:32 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 14:38 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 14:49 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 15:13 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 15:25 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 15:04 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:16 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 15:27 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:33 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 15:47 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:50 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 11:20 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan
2015-05-07 11:30 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-05-07 15:56 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 16:13 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 16:54 John Bodeen
2015-05-08 20:38 Raystonn .
2015-05-08 20:40 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-08 20:51 Raystonn
2015-05-08 20:55 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-08 21:01 Raystonn
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