* [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
@ 2014-12-15 12:47 Peter Todd
2014-12-15 14:57 ` Btc Drak
` (4 more replies)
0 siblings, 5 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2014-12-15 12:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
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BtcDrak was working on rebasing my CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY¹ patch to master a few
days ago and found a fairly large design change that makes merging it currently
impossible. Pull-req #4890², specifically commit c7829ea7, changed the
EvalScript() function to take an abstract SignatureChecker object, removing the
txTo and nIn arguments that used to contain the transaction the script was in
and the txin # respectively. CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY needs txTo to obtain the
nLockTime field of the transaction, and it needs nIn to obtain the nSequence of
the txin.
We need to fix this if CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is to be merged.
Secondly, that this change was made, and the manner in which is was made, is I
think indicative of a development process that has been taking significant
risks with regard to refactoring the consensus critical codebase. I know I
personally have had a hard time keeping up with the very large volume of code
being moved and changed for the v0.10 release, and I know BtcDrak - who is
keeping Viacoin up to date with v0.10 - has also had a hard time giving the
changes reasonable review. The #4890 pull-req in question had no ACKs at all,
and only two untested utACKS, which I find worrying for something that made
significant consensus critical code changes.
While it would be nice to have a library encapsulating the consensus code, this
shouldn't come at the cost of safety, especially when the actual users of that
library or their needs is still uncertain. This is after all a multi-billion
project where a simple fork will cost miners alone tens of thousands of dollars
an hour; easily much more if it results in users being defrauded. That's also
not taking into account the significant negative PR impact and loss of trust. I
personally would recommend *not* upgrading to v0.10 due to these issues.
A much safer approach would be to keep the code changes required for a
consensus library to only simple movements of code for this release, accept
that the interface to that library won't be ideal, and wait until we have
feedback from multiple opensource projects with publicly evaluatable code on
where to go next with the API.
1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki
2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4890
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000001b18a596ecadd07c0e49620fb71b16f9e41131df9fc52fa6
[-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --]
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 12:47 [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged Peter Todd
@ 2014-12-15 14:57 ` Btc Drak
2014-12-15 15:20 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-12-15 17:38 ` Gregory Maxwell
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Btc Drak @ 2014-12-15 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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This is a pretty good example about refactoring discipline as well as
premature/over optimisation.
We all want to see more modular code, but the first steps should just be to
relocate blocks of code so everything is more logically organised in
smaller files (especially for consensus critical code). Refactoring should
come in a second wave preferably after a stable release. Refactoring should
be in the pure sense, optimising code with absolutely no change in
behaviour.
When it comes to actual API changes, I think we need to be a lot more
careful and should be considered feature requests and get a lot more
scrutiny as we are essentially breaking backwards compatibility. #4890 was
pretty much merged with no discussion or thought yet other really simple
and uncontroversial PRs remain unmerged for months. A key question in the
case of EvalScript() would have been, "why are we passing txTo and nIn
here, and are there any future use cases that might require them? Why
should this be removed from the API and the entire method signature
changed?". BC breaks always need strong justification.
So I've expressed my concern a few times about the speed and frequency of
refactoring and also the way it's being done. I am not alone, as others not
directly connected with the Bitcoin Core project have also expressed
concerns about the number of refactorings "for the sake of refactoring",
especially of consensus critical code. Careful as we may be, we know from
history that small edge case bugs can creep in very easily and cause a lot
of unforeseen problems.
BtcDrak
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>
> BtcDrak was working on rebasing my CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY¹ patch to master a
> few
> days ago and found a fairly large design change that makes merging it
> currently
> impossible. Pull-req #4890², specifically commit c7829ea7, changed the
> EvalScript() function to take an abstract SignatureChecker object,
> removing the
> txTo and nIn arguments that used to contain the transaction the script was
> in
> and the txin # respectively. CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY needs txTo to obtain the
> nLockTime field of the transaction, and it needs nIn to obtain the
> nSequence of
> the txin.
>
> We need to fix this if CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is to be merged.
>
> Secondly, that this change was made, and the manner in which is was made,
> is I
> think indicative of a development process that has been taking significant
> risks with regard to refactoring the consensus critical codebase. I know I
> personally have had a hard time keeping up with the very large volume of
> code
> being moved and changed for the v0.10 release, and I know BtcDrak - who is
> keeping Viacoin up to date with v0.10 - has also had a hard time giving the
> changes reasonable review. The #4890 pull-req in question had no ACKs at
> all,
> and only two untested utACKS, which I find worrying for something that made
> significant consensus critical code changes.
>
> While it would be nice to have a library encapsulating the consensus code,
> this
> shouldn't come at the cost of safety, especially when the actual users of
> that
> library or their needs is still uncertain. This is after all a
> multi-billion
> project where a simple fork will cost miners alone tens of thousands of
> dollars
> an hour; easily much more if it results in users being defrauded. That's
> also
> not taking into account the significant negative PR impact and loss of
> trust. I
> personally would recommend *not* upgrading to v0.10 due to these issues.
>
> A much safer approach would be to keep the code changes required for a
> consensus library to only simple movements of code for this release, accept
> that the interface to that library won't be ideal, and wait until we have
> feedback from multiple opensource projects with publicly evaluatable code
> on
> where to go next with the API.
>
> 1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki
> 2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4890
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 00000000000000001b18a596ecadd07c0e49620fb71b16f9e41131df9fc52fa6
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 14:57 ` Btc Drak
@ 2014-12-15 15:20 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-12-15 18:42 ` Cory Fields
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2014-12-15 15:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Btc Drak; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Btc Drak <btcdrak@gmail•com> wrote:
> We all want to see more modular code, but the first steps should just be
> to relocate blocks of code so everything is more logically organised in
> smaller files (especially for consensus critical code). Refactoring should
> come in a second wave preferably after a stable release.
>
This is my opinion as well. In the Linux kernel, we often were faced with
a situation where you have a One Big File driver with > 1MB of source
code. The first step was -always- raw code movement, a brain-dead breaking
up of code into logical source code files.
Refactoring of data structures comes after that.
While not always money-critical, these drivers Had To Keep Working. We had
several situations where we had active users, but zero hardware access for
debugging, and zero access to the vendor knowledge (hardware documentation,
engineers). Failure was not an option. ;p
Performing the dumb Break Up Files step first means that future, more
invasive data structures are easier to review, logically segregated, and
not obscured by further code movement changes down the line. In code such
as Bitcoin Core, it is important to think about the _patch stream_ and how
to optimize for reviewer bandwidth.
The current stream of refactoring is really a turn-off in terms of
reviewing, sapping reviewer bandwidth by IMO being reviewer-unfriendly. It
is a seemingly never-ending series of tiny
refactor-and-then-stuff-in-a-class-and-make-it-pretty-and-do-all-the-work.
Some change is in order, gentlemen.
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 12:47 [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged Peter Todd
2014-12-15 14:57 ` Btc Drak
@ 2014-12-15 17:38 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-12-15 17:46 ` Wladimir
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2014-12-15 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
[snip]
> Pull-req #4890², specifically commit c7829ea7, changed the
This change was authored more than three months ago and merged more
than two months ago.
[And also, AFAICT, prior to you authoring BIP65]
I didn't participate in that pull-req, though I saw it... it had five
other contributors working on it and I try to have minimal opinions on
code organization and formatting.
But the idea sounded (and still sounds) reasonable to me. Of course,
anything could still be backed out if it turned out to be ill-advised
(even post 0.10, as I think now we've had months of testing with this
code in place and removing it may be more risky)... but your comments
here are really not timely.
Everyone has limited resources, which is understandable, but the
concerns you are here are ones that didn't involve looking at the code
to raise, and would have been better process wise raised earlier.
> We need to fix this if CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is to be merged.
I don't see why you conclude this. Rather than violating the layering
by re-parsing the transaction as the lower level, just make this data
additional information that is needed available.
Yes, does mean that rebasing an altcoin that made modifications here
will take more effort and understanding of the code than a purely
mechanical change.
> Secondly, that this change was made, and the manner in which is was made, is I
> think indicative of a development process that has been taking significant
> risks with regard to refactoring the consensus critical codebase.
I don't agree. The character of this change is fairly narrow. We have
moderately good test coverage here, and there were five participants
on the PR.
> While it would be nice to have a library encapsulating the consensus code, this
> shouldn't come at the cost of safety, especially when the actual users of that
This is all true stuff, but the fact of it doesn't follow that any
particular change was especially risky.
Beyond the general 'things were changed in a way that made rebasing
an-altcoin take more work' do you have a specific concern here?
Other than travling back in time three months and doing something
differently, do you have any suggestions to ameliorate that concern?
E.g. are their additional tests we don't already have that you think
would increase your confidence with respect to specific safety
concerns?
> A much safer approach would be to keep the code changes required for a
> consensus library to only simple movements of code for this release, accept
> that the interface to that library won't be ideal, and wait until we have
> feedback from multiple opensource projects with publicly evaluatable code on
> where to go next with the API.
There won't be any public users of the library until there can
actually _be_ a library.
PR4890's primary objective was disentangling the script validation
from the node state introduced by the the signature caching changes a
couple years ago, making it possible to build the consensus components
without application specific threading logic... and makes it possible
to have a plain script evaluator call without having to replicate all
of bitcoind's threading, signature cache, etc. logic. Without a
change like this you can't invoke the script engine without having a
much larger chunk of bitcoind running.
0.10 is a major release, not a maintenance release. It's specifically
in major releases that we make changes which are not purely code
motion and narrow bugfixes (Though many of the changes in 0.10 were
nicely factored into verify pure code motion changes from behavioral
changes). There are many very important, even critical, behavioural
changes in 0.10. That these changes have their own risks are part of
why they aren't in 0.9.x.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 12:47 [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged Peter Todd
2014-12-15 14:57 ` Btc Drak
2014-12-15 17:38 ` Gregory Maxwell
@ 2014-12-15 17:46 ` Wladimir
2014-12-15 18:10 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-12-15 18:35 ` Cory Fields
4 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Wladimir @ 2014-12-15 17:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
> While it would be nice to have a library encapsulating the consensus code, this
> shouldn't come at the cost of safety, especially when the actual users of that
> library or their needs is still uncertain.
While I agree that it shouldn't come at unreasonable risk, my whole
reason for prioritizing the consensus library is that it is the first
step toward the goal of isolating the consensus code completely. As
soon as it exists in a repository by itself, it is easier to enforce a
different regime of change control there, or even freeze it completely
over time. To keep track of consensus changes one'd only have to
follow that repository, instead of filter it between tons of GUI, RPC
or utility commits.
IMO having the consensus isolated into a portable self-contained
library is the most important goal of Bitcoin Core project at this
point. I've tried to keep the amount of unnecessary refactoring down,
but some is unfortunately unavoidable.
I'm sure we can find a way to rebase CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY so that it
can land in 0.11.
Wladimir
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 12:47 [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged Peter Todd
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2014-12-15 17:46 ` Wladimir
@ 2014-12-15 18:10 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-12-15 18:35 ` Cory Fields
4 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Pieter Wuille @ 2014-12-15 18:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:47 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> BtcDrak was working on rebasing my CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY¹ patch to master a few
> days ago and found a fairly large design change that makes merging it currently
> impossible. Pull-req #4890², specifically commit c7829ea7, changed the
> EvalScript() function to take an abstract SignatureChecker object, removing the
> txTo and nIn arguments that used to contain the transaction the script was in
> and the txin # respectively. CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY needs txTo to obtain the
> nLockTime field of the transaction, and it needs nIn to obtain the nSequence of
> the txin.
I agree, and I was thinking earlier that some rebasing would be needed
for CLTV when the change was made. I think this is a good thing
though: #4890 introduced a clear separation between the script
evaluation code and what it can access out of its environment (the
transaction being verified). As CLTV changes the amount available out
of the environment, this indeed requires changing the interface.
> We need to fix this if CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is to be merged.
Done. See https://github.com/sipa/bitcoin/commit/cltv2 for a rebased
version of the BIP65 code on top of 0.10 and master. I haven't ported
any tests you may have that are not in the BIP, to avoid doing double
work. Those should apply cleanly. There is a less clean version (IMHO)
with smaller code changes wrt to the BIP code in my 'cltv' branch too.
> Secondly, that this change was made, and the manner in which is was made, is I
> think indicative of a development process that has been taking significant
> risks with regard to refactoring the consensus critical codebase.
I fully agree that we shouldn't be taking unnecessary risks when
changing consensus code. For example, I closed #5091 (which I would
very much have liked as a code improvement) when realizing the risks.
That said, I don't believe we are at a point where we can just freeze
anything that touches consensus-related, and sometimes refactorings
are necessary. In particular, #4890 introduced separation between a
very fundamental part of consensus logic (script logic) and an
optional optimization for it (caching). If we ever want to get to a
separate consensus code tree or repository, possibly with more strict
reviews, I think changes like this are inevitable.
> I know I
> personally have had a hard time keeping up with the very large volume of code
> being moved and changed for the v0.10 release, and I know BtcDrak - who is
> keeping Viacoin up to date with v0.10 - has also had a hard time giving the
> changes reasonable review. The #4890 pull-req in question had no ACKs at all,
> and only two untested utACKS, which I find worrying for something that made
> significant consensus critical code changes.
I'm sorry to hear that that, and I do understand that many code
movements make this harder. If this is a concern shared by many
people, we can always decide to roll back some refactorings in the
0.10 branch. On the other hand, we don't even have release candidates
yet (which are a pretty important part of the testing and reviewing
process), and doing so would delay things further. 0.10 has many very
significant improvements which are beneficial to the network too,
which I'm sure you're aware of.
It's perfectly reasonable that not everyone has the same bandwidth
available to keep up with changes, and perhaps that means slowing
things down. Again, I don't want to say "this was reviewed before, we
can't go back to this" - but did you really need 3 months to realize
this change? I also see that elsewhere you're complaining about #5421
of yours which hasn't made it in yet - after less than 2 weeks. Yes, I
like the change, and I will review it. Surely you are not arguing it
can be merged without decent review?
> While it would be nice to have a library encapsulating the consensus code, this
> shouldn't come at the cost of safety, especially when the actual users of that
> library or their needs is still uncertain. This is after all a multi-billion
> project where a simple fork will cost miners alone tens of thousands of dollars
> an hour; easily much more if it results in users being defrauded. That's also
> not taking into account the significant negative PR impact and loss of trust. I
> personally would recommend *not* upgrading to v0.10 due to these issues.
I have been very much in favor of a libconsensus library, and for
several reasons. It's a step towards separating out the
consensus-critical parts from optional pieces of the codebase, and it
is a step towards avoiding the "reimplementing consensus code is very
dangerous! ... but we really don't have a way to allow you to reuse
the existing code either" argument. It does not fully accomplish
either of those goals, but gradual steps with time to let changes
mature in between are nice.
> A much safer approach would be to keep the code changes required for a
> consensus library to only simple movements of code for this release, accept
> that the interface to that library won't be ideal, and wait until we have
> feedback from multiple opensource projects with publicly evaluatable code on
> where to go next with the API.
If at this point the consensus code was nicely separated, I would
argue to *copy* it (despite all normal engineering practices that
argue against code duplication), into a frozen separate directory or
even repository, and have all validation related code use the
consensus version, while everything else can use a normal tree
version, which then can evolve at a normal pace, and undergo cleanups,
API changes and feature improvements along with the rest of the code.
Unfortunately, it is not. The consensus code is mixed all over the
place, and this forces unnecessary strain on all development of the
codebase. I hope people agree that getting to a point where this is no
longer the case is important.
--
Pieter
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 12:47 [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged Peter Todd
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2014-12-15 18:10 ` Pieter Wuille
@ 2014-12-15 18:35 ` Cory Fields
4 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Cory Fields @ 2014-12-15 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:47 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> BtcDrak was working on rebasing my CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY¹ patch to master a few
> days ago and found a fairly large design change that makes merging it currently
> impossible. Pull-req #4890², specifically commit c7829ea7, changed the
> EvalScript() function to take an abstract SignatureChecker object, removing the
> txTo and nIn arguments that used to contain the transaction the script was in
> and the txin # respectively. CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY needs txTo to obtain the
> nLockTime field of the transaction, and it needs nIn to obtain the nSequence of
> the txin.
>
> We need to fix this if CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is to be merged.
>
> Secondly, that this change was made, and the manner in which is was made, is I
> think indicative of a development process that has been taking significant
> risks with regard to refactoring the consensus critical codebase. I know I
> personally have had a hard time keeping up with the very large volume of code
> being moved and changed for the v0.10 release, and I know BtcDrak - who is
> keeping Viacoin up to date with v0.10 - has also had a hard time giving the
> changes reasonable review. The #4890 pull-req in question had no ACKs at all,
> and only two untested utACKS, which I find worrying for something that made
> significant consensus critical code changes.
>
> While it would be nice to have a library encapsulating the consensus code, this
> shouldn't come at the cost of safety, especially when the actual users of that
> library or their needs is still uncertain. This is after all a multi-billion
> project where a simple fork will cost miners alone tens of thousands of dollars
> an hour; easily much more if it results in users being defrauded. That's also
> not taking into account the significant negative PR impact and loss of trust. I
> personally would recommend *not* upgrading to v0.10 due to these issues.
>
> A much safer approach would be to keep the code changes required for a
> consensus library to only simple movements of code for this release, accept
> that the interface to that library won't be ideal, and wait until we have
> feedback from multiple opensource projects with publicly evaluatable code on
> where to go next with the API.
>
> 1) https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0065.mediawiki
> 2) https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/4890
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 00000000000000001b18a596ecadd07c0e49620fb71b16f9e41131df9fc52fa6
It would appear as though you're trying to drum up controversy here,
but the argument is quite a stretch, and contrary to some other
arguments you're making in parallel. There seem to be three themes in
your above complaint, so I'd like to address them individually.
1. Pr #4890 specifically. The argument seems to be that this was not
properly reviewed/tested, and that it is an unnecessary risk to the
consensus codebase.
Looking at the PR at github, while I certainly don't agree with those
conclusions, I suppose I can understand where they're coming from.
There's plenty of context missing, as well as sidebar discussions on
IRC and other PRs. To an outside observer, these changes may look
under-tested and unnecessary.
The context that's missing is the flurry of work that was going on in
parallel to modularize this (and surrounding code). #4890 was one of
the first pieces necessary for that, so some of the discussion about
it was happening in dependent pull requests.
You can point to a lack ACKs in one place for that PR, but that
doesn't mean that the changes weren't tested/reviewed/necessary. You
could also argue that ACKs should've been mirrored on the PR in
question for posterity, which would be a perfectly reasonable argument
that I would agree with.
2. These changes conflict with a rebased version of your
CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY changes. OK? You have a tree that's a few months
old, and you find that you have conflicts when rebasing to master. It
happens to all of us. Do as the rest of us do and update your changes
to fit. If you missed the review of #4890 and think it should be
reverted, then call for a revert. But please give a concrete reason
other than "I've picked this commit series for a crusade because it
gave me merge conflicts".
What is the conspiracy here? There's a signature cache that is
implementation-specific, and in a parallel universe, you might be
arguing that we should rip it out because it adds unnecessary
complexity to the consensus code. The PR provides a path around that
complexity. For some reason, your reaction is to cry foul months later
because you missed reviewing it at the time, rather than cheering for
the reduced complexity.
3. You seem to think that 1. and 2. seem to point to a systemic
failure of the review process because modularization "shouldn't come
at the cost of safety". I agree that it shouldn't come at the cost of
safety, but I see no failure here. There has been a HUGE effort to
modularize the code with a combination of pure-code-movement and small
interface reworks. Please take a moment to grep the git logs for
"MOVEONLY" in the 0.10 branch.
You'll notice that script verification is now 100% free of bitcoind
state, threading, and third-party libraries (other than openssl for
now). That constitutes a massive reduction in code complexity, future
review overhead, etc. I'll point out here that those were my reasons
for my contributions to the libbitcoinconsensus effort. I have no
interest in altcoins or sidechains.
Those milestones were thanks to an effort which included #4890. If you
have issues with these changes and/or how they were made, please call
out individual failures and proposed solutions _in context_. That they
conflict with CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY may be a valid concern, and it may
be worth evaluating how separate coding efforts may more effectively
parallelized.
Without pointers to specific failures or solutions, I'm not sure what
you were trying to communicate here, other than maybe stirring the
social networks with: "I
personally would recommend *not* upgrading to v0.10 due to these
issues." That's fine I suppose, but it does nothing to solve whatever
issue you're trying to call out here.
Cory
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 15:20 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2014-12-15 18:42 ` Cory Fields
2014-12-15 19:35 ` Jeff Garzik
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Cory Fields @ 2014-12-15 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Btc Drak <btcdrak@gmail•com> wrote:
>>
>> We all want to see more modular code, but the first steps should just be
>> to relocate blocks of code so everything is more logically organised in
>> smaller files (especially for consensus critical code). Refactoring should
>> come in a second wave preferably after a stable release.
>
>
> This is my opinion as well. In the Linux kernel, we often were faced with a
> situation where you have a One Big File driver with > 1MB of source code.
> The first step was -always- raw code movement, a brain-dead breaking up of
> code into logical source code files.
>
> Refactoring of data structures comes after that.
>
> While not always money-critical, these drivers Had To Keep Working. We had
> several situations where we had active users, but zero hardware access for
> debugging, and zero access to the vendor knowledge (hardware documentation,
> engineers). Failure was not an option. ;p
>
> Performing the dumb Break Up Files step first means that future, more
> invasive data structures are easier to review, logically segregated, and not
> obscured by further code movement changes down the line. In code such as
> Bitcoin Core, it is important to think about the _patch stream_ and how to
> optimize for reviewer bandwidth.
>
> The current stream of refactoring is really a turn-off in terms of
> reviewing, sapping reviewer bandwidth by IMO being reviewer-unfriendly. It
> is a seemingly never-ending series of tiny
> refactor-and-then-stuff-in-a-class-and-make-it-pretty-and-do-all-the-work.
> Some change is in order, gentlemen.
>
> --
> Jeff Garzik
> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
That's exactly what happened during the modularization process, with
the exception that the code movement and refactors happened in
parallel rather than in series. But they _were_ done in separate
logical chunks for the sake of easier review. The commit tag
"MOVEONLY" developed organically out of this process, and a grep of
the 0.10 branch for "MOVEONLY" is a testament to exactly how much code
moved 1:1 out of huge files and into logically separated places and/or
new files.
Perhaps it's worth making "MOVEONLY" (which as the name implies, means
that code has been copied 1:1 to a new location) use an official dev
guideline for use in future refactors.
Cory
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 18:42 ` Cory Fields
@ 2014-12-15 19:35 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-12-15 21:19 ` Cory Fields
2014-12-15 21:57 ` Btc Drak
0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2014-12-15 19:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Cory Fields; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Cory Fields <lists@coryfields•com> wrote:
> That's exactly what happened during the modularization process, with
> the exception that the code movement and refactors happened in
> parallel rather than in series. But they _were_ done in separate
> logical chunks for the sake of easier review.
>
"That's exactly what was done except it wasn't"
Yes, in micro, at the pull request level, this happened
* Code movement
* Refactor
At a macro level, that cycle was repeated many times, leading to the
opposite end result: a lot of tiny movement/refactor/movement/refactor
producing the review and patch annoyances described.
It produces a blizzard of new files and new data structures, breaking a
bunch of out-of-tree patches, complicating review quite a bit. If the vast
majority of code movement is up front, followed by algebraic
simplifications, followed by data structure work, further patches are easy
to review/apply with less impact on unrelated code.
The flow of patches into the tree over time should be examined. Simply
tagging patches as movement-only does not address the described problem at
all.
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 19:35 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2014-12-15 21:19 ` Cory Fields
2014-12-15 21:54 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-12-15 21:57 ` Btc Drak
1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Cory Fields @ 2014-12-15 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Cory Fields <lists@coryfields•com> wrote:
>>
>> That's exactly what happened during the modularization process, with
>> the exception that the code movement and refactors happened in
>> parallel rather than in series. But they _were_ done in separate
>> logical chunks for the sake of easier review.
>
>
> "That's exactly what was done except it wasn't"
>
> Yes, in micro, at the pull request level, this happened
> * Code movement
> * Refactor
>
> At a macro level, that cycle was repeated many times, leading to the
> opposite end result: a lot of tiny movement/refactor/movement/refactor
> producing the review and patch annoyances described.
>
> It produces a blizzard of new files and new data structures, breaking a
> bunch of out-of-tree patches, complicating review quite a bit. If the vast
> majority of code movement is up front, followed by algebraic
> simplifications, followed by data structure work, further patches are easy
> to review/apply with less impact on unrelated code.
>
I won't argue that at all because it's perfectly logical, but in
practice that doesn't translate from the macro level to the micro
level very well. At the micro level, minor code changes are almost
always needed to accommodate useful code movement. Even if they're not
required, it's often hard to justify code movement for the sake of
code movement with the promise that it will be useful later.
Rather than arguing hypotheticals, let's use a real example:
https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5118 . That one's pretty
simple. The point of the PR was to unchain our openssl wrapper so that
key operations could be performed by the consensus lib without
dragging in bitcoind's structures. The first commit severs the
dependencies. The second commit does the code movement from the
now-freed wrapper.
I'm having a hard time coming up with a workflow that would handle
these two changes as _separate_ events, while making review easier.
Note that I'm not attempting to argue with you here, rather I'm
genuinely curious as to how you'd rather see this specific example
(which is representative of most of my other code movement for the
libbitcoinconsensus work, i believe) handled.
Using your model above, I suppose we'd do the code movement first with
the dependencies still intact as a pull request. At some later date,
we'd sever the dependencies in the new files. I suppose you'd also
prefer that I group a bunch of code-movement changes together into a
single PR which needs little scrutiny, only verification that it's
move-only. Once the code-movement PRs are merged, I can begin the
cleanups which actually fix something.
In practice, though, that'd be a massive headache for different
reasons. Lots in flux with seemingly no benefits until some later
date. My PR's can't depend on eachother because they don't actually
fix issues in a linear fashion. That means that other devs can't
depend on my PRs either for the same reason. And what have we gained?
Do you find that assessment unreasonable?
Cory
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 21:19 ` Cory Fields
@ 2014-12-15 21:54 ` Jeff Garzik
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2014-12-15 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Cory Fields; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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If code movement is not compressed into a tight time window, code movement
becomes a constant stream during development. A constant stream of code
movement is a constant stream of patch breakage, for any patch or project
not yet in-tree. The result is to increase the work and cost on any
contributor whose patches are not immediately merged.
For the record, since this is trending reddit, I __do__ support the end
result of 0.10 refactoring, the work towards the consensus lib.
My criticism is of a merge flow which _unintentionally_ rewards only
certain types of patches, and creates disincentives for working on other
types of patches.
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Cory Fields <lists@coryfields•com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 2:35 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 1:42 PM, Cory Fields <lists@coryfields•com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> That's exactly what happened during the modularization process, with
> >> the exception that the code movement and refactors happened in
> >> parallel rather than in series. But they _were_ done in separate
> >> logical chunks for the sake of easier review.
> >
> >
> > "That's exactly what was done except it wasn't"
> >
> > Yes, in micro, at the pull request level, this happened
> > * Code movement
> > * Refactor
> >
> > At a macro level, that cycle was repeated many times, leading to the
> > opposite end result: a lot of tiny movement/refactor/movement/refactor
> > producing the review and patch annoyances described.
> >
> > It produces a blizzard of new files and new data structures, breaking a
> > bunch of out-of-tree patches, complicating review quite a bit. If the
> vast
> > majority of code movement is up front, followed by algebraic
> > simplifications, followed by data structure work, further patches are
> easy
> > to review/apply with less impact on unrelated code.
> >
>
> I won't argue that at all because it's perfectly logical, but in
> practice that doesn't translate from the macro level to the micro
> level very well. At the micro level, minor code changes are almost
> always needed to accommodate useful code movement. Even if they're not
> required, it's often hard to justify code movement for the sake of
> code movement with the promise that it will be useful later.
>
> Rather than arguing hypotheticals, let's use a real example:
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/5118 . That one's pretty
> simple. The point of the PR was to unchain our openssl wrapper so that
> key operations could be performed by the consensus lib without
> dragging in bitcoind's structures. The first commit severs the
> dependencies. The second commit does the code movement from the
> now-freed wrapper.
>
> I'm having a hard time coming up with a workflow that would handle
> these two changes as _separate_ events, while making review easier.
> Note that I'm not attempting to argue with you here, rather I'm
> genuinely curious as to how you'd rather see this specific example
> (which is representative of most of my other code movement for the
> libbitcoinconsensus work, i believe) handled.
>
> Using your model above, I suppose we'd do the code movement first with
> the dependencies still intact as a pull request. At some later date,
> we'd sever the dependencies in the new files. I suppose you'd also
> prefer that I group a bunch of code-movement changes together into a
> single PR which needs little scrutiny, only verification that it's
> move-only. Once the code-movement PRs are merged, I can begin the
> cleanups which actually fix something.
>
> In practice, though, that'd be a massive headache for different
> reasons. Lots in flux with seemingly no benefits until some later
> date. My PR's can't depend on eachother because they don't actually
> fix issues in a linear fashion. That means that other devs can't
> depend on my PRs either for the same reason. And what have we gained?
>
> Do you find that assessment unreasonable?
>
> Cory
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged
2014-12-15 19:35 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-12-15 21:19 ` Cory Fields
@ 2014-12-15 21:57 ` Btc Drak
1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Btc Drak @ 2014-12-15 21:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:35 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com> wrote:
>
> At a macro level, that cycle was repeated many times, leading to the
> opposite end result: a lot of tiny movement/refactor/movement/refactor
> producing the review and patch annoyances described.
>
> It produces a blizzard of new files and new data structures, breaking a
> bunch of out-of-tree patches, complicating review quite a bit. If the vast
> majority of code movement is up front, followed by algebraic
> simplifications, followed by data structure work, further patches are easy
> to review/apply with less impact on unrelated code.
>
> The flow of patches into the tree over time should be examined. Simply
> tagging patches as movement-only does not address the described problem at
> all.
>
I think we can all agree that if the process is made more friendly for
reviewers, everyone wins. It's been hard to even know where everything is
because it moves so often. e.g. In the last couple weeks stuff moved from
core.h to core/block.h to primitive/block.h or something to that effect.
Anyway, Jeff said this quite elegantly.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2014-12-15 21:57 UTC | newest]
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-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2014-12-15 12:47 [Bitcoin-development] Recent EvalScript() changes mean CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY can't be merged Peter Todd
2014-12-15 14:57 ` Btc Drak
2014-12-15 15:20 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-12-15 18:42 ` Cory Fields
2014-12-15 19:35 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-12-15 21:19 ` Cory Fields
2014-12-15 21:54 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-12-15 21:57 ` Btc Drak
2014-12-15 17:38 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-12-15 17:46 ` Wladimir
2014-12-15 18:10 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-12-15 18:35 ` Cory Fields
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