From: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32•com>
To: LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live•com.au>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2021 09:49:08 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAJowKg+UY4AN_9otk+6doNsP6NVeHZti_89rCAOTfVaQahre+A@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <SL2P216MB00899B7B3C67C0DD9E9376B09D989@SL2P216MB0089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
taproot does not enable anything that cannot already be done today.
it only enables larger and more complex scripts to be done more
efficiently - using less ledger space.
so any objections you can have should be leveled at bitcoin, not at taproot.
On Wed, Mar 3, 2021 at 6:39 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via
bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> "Today I spent approximately $5 at a chip shop in North London in cash. Besides the fact that I have voluntarily chosen to share this information, it is absolutely no concern of yourself or any other party that this transaction has occured."
>
> Good Afternoon,
>
> Requiring little argument I concur, privacy allows that you do not have snoops and researchers following you around looking in your purse as you transact. For the general public, how much you carry in your purse and where you get it from is none of their business. However, your employer is required to report to the government a record of pay, or at least maintain that record, and the store where you made a purchase similarly to keep records so that taxes can be paid. From their perspective, you do not need to know how much they keep in their drawer. Bitcoin directly allows your purse to be private and for the transaction ledger to take the scrutiny anyone should be able to apply to prove the ledger is honest. Maintaining an argument that consensus requires the ledger to be honest does not prove that it is honest.
>
> KING JAMES HRMH
> Great British Empire
>
> Regards,
> The Australian
> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> Wills
>
> et al.
>
>
> Willtech
> www.willtech.com.au
> www.go-overt.com
> and other projects
>
> earn.com/willtech
> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
>
>
> m. 0487135719
> f. +61261470192
>
>
> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
> ________________________________
> From: bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists•linuxfoundation.org> on behalf of Daniel Edgecumbe via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, 2 March 2021 12:16 PM
> To: M.K. Safi via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
>
> Any "transparency" in the blockchain, beyond that required for a participant to determine valid ownership, can only reasonably be thought of as a bug.
>
> Today I spent approximately $5 at a chip shop in North London in cash. Besides the fact that I have voluntarily chosen to share this information, it is absolutely no concern of yourself or any other party that this transaction has occured.
>
> Bitcoin is digital cash.
>
> Daniel Edgecumbe | esotericnonsense
> email@esotericnonsense•com | https://esotericnonsense.com
>
> On Mon, Mar 1, 2021, at 22:37, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > To be clear, is this a NACK because Taproot reduces “transparency”
> > (increases privacy) on the chain (“maintaining consensus” is obviously
> > an argument against any protocol change, so that’s a red herring)?
> >
> > And is it your theory that only an “honest” (statute abiding) person
> > should have privacy, and not against the state, and/or that mixers are
> > sufficient privacy?
> >
> > Personally, I’m not moved by such an argument. What do you think is the
> > value proposition of Bitcoin?
> >
> > e
> >
> > > On Mar 1, 2021, at 14:21, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Good Afternoon,
> > >
> > > I am going to take tough terms with much of your reply and do appreciate a courteous practice. Having previously made public disclosure of my affiliation with Jambler.io it seems sufficient to disclose my affiliation through the link in my email signature block.
> > >
> > > My concern is not increased privacy it is maintaining consensus values and the transparency of the blockchain wherein all transactions are published in an immutable record and that forbids the redaction of information by any obfuscation. A separate concern is the availability of a privacy suitable for cash should a Bitcoin user desire and especially without disturbing the existing consensus.
> > >
> > > The use of a Bitcoin Mixer is to enable standard equivalent privacy. As you may experience yourself, you do not allow people to follow you around looking in your purse, suppose you are dealing entirely with cash, and to see where and how much you fill it up, and where you spend. Nonetheless, for an honest person, their wallet is available for government audit as are their financial affairs. This is consistent with the existing operation of consensus.
> > >
> > > My full email signature block is a disclosure where I have some affiliation with the referenced website being that it carries at least some information that I have provided or that in some way I am associated perhaps only making use of their services. For example, I hardly make a profit from LinkedIn just my information is there. Also, I have made previous public disclosure of the affiliation. Bitcoin Mixer 2.0 is a partner mixer run by Jambler.io wherein I receive a service referral fee and am not in receipt of any part of the process transaction. The operation block diagram provided by Jambler.io is provided here and attached.
> > > <ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
> > >
> > > [ip.bitcointalk.org.png]-Operation of Jambler.io partner mixer
> > > https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fjambler.io%2Fimages%2Fscheme-1.png&t=622&c=gTi7r1cfh-yynw
> > > from this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5267588
> > >
> > >
> > > The installation script provided by Jambler.io that is the basis of my referral website is also publicly published,
> > > https://github.com/jambler-io/bitcoin-mixer
> > >
> > > The disclosure for the partner program is available from Jambler.io however and is made prominently on my referral website. While it may seem lucrative at first I insist all partner profits are reportable on your personal income.
> > > https://jambler.io/become-partner.php
> > >
> > > I am certainly better than confident that you appreciate the difference between an open and transparent blockchain and the ability of the user to not reveal details of the content of their wallet publicly.
> > >
> > > If further clarification is required may I suggest you pay a token and mix some Bitcoin wherein our discussion may then have some point of reference.
> > >
> > > KING JAMES HRMH
> > > Great British Empire
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > The Australian
> > > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> > > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> > > MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> > > Wills
> > >
> > > et al.
> > >
> > >
> > > Willtech
> > > www.willtech.com.au
> > > www.go-overt.com
> > > and other projects
> > >
> > > earn.com/willtech
> > > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
> > >
> > >
> > > m. 0487135719
> > > f. +61261470192
> > >
> > >
> > > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
> > > *From:* Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces <arielluaces@gmail•com>
> > > *Sent:* Monday, 1 March 2021 12:07 AM
> > > *To:* LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live•com.au>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
> > > *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
> > >
> > > Hello LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
> > >
> > > I find a striking dichotomy between your concern of increased privacy in bitcoin and your link to a bitcoin mixer in your signature www.go-overt.com
> > >
> > > At first your concerns seemed genuine but after seeing your promotion of a bitcoin mixer I'm thinking your concerns may be more profit motivated? I can't tell since you failed to disclose your relationship with the mixer.
> > >
> > > Could you please clarify your association with the bitcoin mixer and moving forward could you please always do proper disclosure any time you're publically talking about bitcoin transaction privacy. It's only fair to do so as to not mislead people in an attempt to manipulate at worst and just a courteous practice at best.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces
> > > On Feb 28, 2021, at 4:36 AM, LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > >> Good Evening,
> > >>
> > >> Thank-you for your advice @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin> on the basis you advise, "Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy features", I am prepred to withdraw my NACK notably that the existing feeatures of Bitcoin MUST be maintained, and whereby the UTXO of a transaction is identifiable, the PayTo Address, and the amount all without any obfuscation.
> > >>
> > >> Lightning does not really provide obfuscation, it provides a result of a subset of transactions although the operation of the channel is observable to the parties.
> > >>
> > >> The reports I were reading concerning the supposed operation of Taproot published in a public media channel may have been speculation or misinformation nonetheless it is prudent to conditionally reply as you see that I have. It is important not to allow things to slip through the cracks. As you may believe may astute reviewers could make a full disclosure to this list it is not to be expected.
> > >>
> > >> KING JAMES HRMH
> > >> Great British Empire
> > >>
> > >> Regards,
> > >> The Australian
> > >> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> > >> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> > >> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> > >> Wills
> > >>
> > >> et al.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Willtech
> > >> www.willtech.com.au
> > >> www.go-overt.com
> > >> and other projects
> > >>
> > >> earn.com/willtech
> > >> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> m. 0487135719
> > >> f. +61261470192
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
> > >> *From:* Jeremy <jlrubin@mit•edu>
> > >> *Sent:* Sunday, 28 February 2021 3:14 AM
> > >> *To:* LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH <willtech@live•com.au>; Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
> > >> *Subject:* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Taproot NACK
> > >>
> > >> I have good news for you: Taproot does not enable monero-like privacy features any moreso than already exist in Bitcoin today. At its core, taproot is a way to make transactions with embedded smart contracts less expensive, done so in a manner that may marginally improve privacy dependent on user behavior (but not in the monero-like way you mention). For example, it makes it possible for lightning channels to look structurally similar to single key wallets, but it does nothing inherently to obfuscate the transaction graph as in monero.
> > >>
> > >> Such "monero-like" transaction graph obfuscation may already exist in Bitcoin via other techniques (coinjoin, payjoin, coinswap, lightning, etc) with or without Taproot, so the point is further moot.
> > >>
> > >> Do you have a source on your reporting?
> > >>
> > >> You may wish to rescind your nack.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> @JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin> <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Feb 27, 2021 at 5:46 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> > >>> Good Afternoon,
> > >>>
> > >>> It has been reported that Taproot will enable some Monero like features including the ability to hide transactions.
> > >>>
> > >>> If that is the case I offer a full NACK and let me explain.
> > >>>
> > >>> A part of the benefit of using Bitcoin is its honesty. The full transaction is published on the blockchain. If that were to change so that transactions may be obfuscated from scrutiny then any government would have unlimited impetus to ban Bitcoin, and speculation has that is the reason India has been reported to have banned cryptocurrencies already.
> > >>>
> > >>> I am in support of the expanded use case of Bitcoin without harming the established robust fairness and equal equity offered. The core functionality of Bitcoin, its values, must remain unaltered.
> > >>>
> > >>> KING JAMES HRMH
> > >>> Great British Empire
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> The Australian
> > >>> LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)
> > >>> of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire
> > >>> MR. Damian A. James Williamson
> > >>> Wills
> > >>>
> > >>> et al.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Willtech
> > >>> www.willtech.com.au
> > >>> www.go-overt.com
> > >>> and other projects
> > >>>
> > >>> earn.com/willtech
> > >>> linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> m. 0487135719
> > >>> f. +61261470192
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this email if misdelivered.
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > >>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> > >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > >>
> > >> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> > >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > > <ip.bitcointalk.org.png>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
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> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-03-04 3:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 36+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-02-24 3:23 LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-02-27 16:14 ` Jeremy
2021-02-28 11:36 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-02-28 13:07 ` Ariel Lorenzo-Luaces
2021-03-01 1:34 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-01 22:37 ` Eric Voskuil
2021-03-02 1:16 ` Daniel Edgecumbe
2021-03-03 3:06 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-03 11:58 ` eric
2021-03-03 16:30 ` micaroni
2021-03-03 14:49 ` Erik Aronesty [this message]
2021-03-04 5:06 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-05 14:04 ` Ryan Grant
2021-03-10 6:34 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-11 0:47 ` Keagan McClelland
2021-03-12 13:04 ` R E Broadley
2021-03-12 22:30 ` Eric Voskuil
2021-03-14 10:13 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-14 18:41 ` Aymeric Vitte
2021-03-17 4:19 ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-03-17 5:46 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-17 7:14 ` Eric Voskuil
2021-03-02 11:56 ` Chris Belcher
2021-03-03 11:22 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-16 2:11 ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-03-16 11:39 ` DA Williamson
2021-03-17 4:11 ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-03-17 8:13 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-17 9:32 ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-03-18 1:10 ` DA Williamson
2021-03-03 2:54 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-03 11:55 ` eric
2021-03-04 4:53 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-03-03 14:32 ` Thomas Hartman
2021-03-04 5:05 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
[not found] <SL2P216MB008922741210CC853A51A5A19D979@SL2P216MB0089.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
2021-03-04 7:46 ` Eric Voskuil
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