From: Andrew <onelineproof@gmail•com>
To: Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Block Size Increase
Date: Fri, 8 May 2015 17:17:49 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAL8tG=kA7V5wuRB9ob9ue4XAwGpkhh_yO_-EWDkYstV0q4PR5A@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <554CCF56.3000604@gmail.com>
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On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> This isn't about "everyone's coffee". This is about an absolute minimum
> amount of participation by people who wish to use the network. If our
> goal is really for bitcoin to really be a global, open transaction network
> that makes money fluid, then 7tps is already a failure. If even 5% of the
> world (350M people) was using the network for 1 tx per month (perhaps to
> open payment channels, or shift money between side chains), we'll be above
> 100 tps. And that doesn't include all the non-individuals (organizations)
> that want to use it.
>
> The goals of "a global transaction network" and "everyone must be able to
> run a full node with their $200 dell laptop" are not compatible. We need
> to accept that a global transaction system cannot be fully/constantly
> audited by everyone and their mother. The important feature of the network
> is that it is open and anyone *can* get the history and verify it. But not
> everyone is required to. Trying to promote a system wher000e the history
> can be forever handled by a low-end PC is already falling out of reach,
> even with our miniscule 7 tps. Clinging to that goal needlessly limits the
> capability for the network to scale to be a useful global payments system
>
These are good points and got me thinking (but I think you're wrong). If we
really want each of the 10 billion people soon using bitcoin once per
month, that will require 500MB blocks. That's about 2 TB per month. And if
you relay it to 4 peers, it's 10 TB per month. Which I suppose is doable
for a home desktop, so you can just run a pruned full node with all
transactions from the past month. But how do you sync all those
transactions if you've never done this before or it's been a while since
you did? I think it currently takes at least 3 hours to fully sync 30 GB of
transactions. So 2 TB will take 8 days, then you take a bit more time to
sync the days that passed while you were syncing. So that's doable, but at
a certain point, like 10 TB per month (still only 5 transactions per month
per person), you will need 41 days to sync that month, so you will never
catch up. So I think in order to keep the very important property of anyone
being able to start clean and verify the thing, then we need to think of
bitcoin as a system that does transactions for a large number of users at
once in one transaction, and not a system where each person will make a
~monthly transaction on. We need to therefore rely on sidechains,
treechains, lightning channels, etc...
I'm not a bitcoin wizard and this is just my second post on this mailing
list, so I may be missing something. So please someone, correct me if I'm
wrong.
>
>
>
> On 05/07/2015 03:54 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail•com> wrote:
>
>
>> (2) Leveraging fee pressure at 1MB to solve the problem is actually
>> really a bad idea. It's really bad while Bitcoin is still growing, and
>> relying on fee pressure at 1 MB severely impacts attractiveness and
>> adoption potential of Bitcoin (due to high fees and unreliability). But
>> more importantly, it ignores the fact that for a 7 tps is pathetic for a
>> global transaction system. It is a couple orders of magnitude too low for
>> any meaningful commercial activity to occur. If we continue with a cap of
>> 7 tps forever, Bitcoin *will* fail. Or at best, it will fail to be
>> useful for the vast majority of the world (which probably leads to
>> failure). We shouldn't be talking about fee pressure until we hit 700 tps,
>> which is probably still too low.
>>
> [...]
>
> 1) Agree that 7 tps is too low
>
> 2) Where do you want to go? Should bitcoin scale up to handle all the
> world's coffees?
>
> This is hugely unrealistic. 700 tps is 100MB blocks, 14.4 GB/day --
> just for a single feed. If you include relaying to multiple nodes, plus
> serving 500 million SPV clients en grosse, who has the capacity to run such
> a node? By the time we get to fee pressure, in your scenario, our network
> node count is tiny and highly centralized.
>
> 3) In RE "fee pressure" -- Do you see the moral hazard to a software-run
> system? It is an intentional, human decision to flood the market with
> supply, thereby altering the economics, forcing fees to remain low in the
> hopes of achieving adoption. I'm pro-bitcoin and obviously want to see
> bitcoin adoption - but I don't want to sacrifice every decentralized
> principle and become a central banker in order to get there.
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-05-08 17:17 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 116+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-05-06 22:12 Matt Corallo
2015-05-06 22:30 ` slush
2015-05-06 23:06 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-05-06 22:44 ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-06 23:12 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-06 23:33 ` Tier Nolan
2015-05-06 23:41 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 2:16 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-06 23:11 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-05-06 23:13 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 0:00 ` Tom Harding
2015-05-07 0:07 ` Bryan Bishop
2015-05-07 0:37 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-05-07 1:49 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 3:03 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-08 11:02 ` Thomas Zander
2015-05-08 20:17 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-05-07 3:47 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-05-07 9:25 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 10:12 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 10:42 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 10:52 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 11:15 ` Andrew
2015-05-07 11:29 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 12:26 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 14:05 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 14:18 ` Bryan Bishop
2015-05-07 14:22 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 14:40 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 14:52 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-07 14:56 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 15:04 ` Alex Morcos
2015-05-07 15:09 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:12 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 15:17 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:29 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 15:35 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 16:18 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 16:21 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 17:29 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 19:37 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 19:44 ` Jérémie Dubois-Lacoste
2015-05-07 20:20 ` Jérémie Dubois-Lacoste
2015-05-07 15:58 ` Matthew Mitchell
2015-05-07 16:47 ` Matthew Mitchell
2015-05-07 17:26 ` Matt Corallo
[not found] ` <CABsx9T2vAQyZODRE9apu0R1n=LybssQcuTYD7P3mAQH_Fv6QCQ@mail.gmail.com>
2015-05-07 17:40 ` [Bitcoin-development] Fwd: " Gavin Andresen
2015-05-07 17:43 ` [Bitcoin-development] " Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 18:03 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 18:06 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 18:21 ` Ross Nicoll
2015-05-07 18:40 ` Gavin Costin
2015-05-07 18:46 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 19:31 ` Bernard Rihn
2015-05-07 19:31 ` Alan Reiner
2015-05-07 19:54 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 19:59 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-08 1:40 ` Tom Harding
2015-05-08 2:09 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-08 5:13 ` Tom Harding
2015-05-08 9:43 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-08 15:23 ` Alan Reiner
2015-05-08 14:59 ` Alan Reiner
2015-05-08 15:49 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-13 10:37 ` Oliver Egginger
2015-05-13 11:25 ` Angel Leon
2015-05-08 17:17 ` Andrew [this message]
2015-05-08 17:51 ` Alan Reiner
[not found] ` <CADZB0_bK+YsK8sN-di2pynvjsq5VjSvnEu0-cCGhPqFunyVm7Q@mail.gmail.com>
2015-05-09 12:02 ` Andrew
2015-05-09 12:53 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-09 18:33 ` Andrew
2015-05-08 1:51 ` Joel Joonatan Kaartinen
2015-05-08 3:41 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 18:38 ` Chris Wardell
2015-05-07 18:55 ` Alex Mizrahi
2015-05-07 18:59 ` Ross Nicoll
2015-05-07 19:03 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 19:13 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 19:34 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 21:29 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 23:05 ` 21E14
2015-05-07 15:33 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 16:11 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 16:47 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 16:59 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-05-07 17:42 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 18:05 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-07 19:57 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 15:39 ` Btc Drak
2015-05-07 13:02 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 19:14 ` Matt Corallo
2015-05-07 11:55 ` Dave Hudson
2015-05-07 13:40 ` Jorge Timón
2015-05-08 4:46 ` Tom Harding
2015-05-07 14:04 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 14:32 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 14:38 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 14:49 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 15:13 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 15:25 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-07 15:04 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:16 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 15:27 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:33 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 15:47 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 15:50 ` Justus Ranvier
2015-05-07 11:20 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan
2015-05-07 11:30 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-05-07 15:56 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-05-07 16:13 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-07 16:54 John Bodeen
2015-05-08 20:38 Raystonn .
2015-05-08 20:40 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-08 20:51 Raystonn
2015-05-08 20:55 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-08 21:01 Raystonn
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