On Fri, May 8, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: > > This isn't about "everyone's coffee". This is about an absolute minimum > amount of participation by people who wish to use the network. If our > goal is really for bitcoin to really be a global, open transaction network > that makes money fluid, then 7tps is already a failure. If even 5% of the > world (350M people) was using the network for 1 tx per month (perhaps to > open payment channels, or shift money between side chains), we'll be above > 100 tps. And that doesn't include all the non-individuals (organizations) > that want to use it. > > The goals of "a global transaction network" and "everyone must be able to > run a full node with their $200 dell laptop" are not compatible. We need > to accept that a global transaction system cannot be fully/constantly > audited by everyone and their mother. The important feature of the network > is that it is open and anyone *can* get the history and verify it. But not > everyone is required to. Trying to promote a system wher000e the history > can be forever handled by a low-end PC is already falling out of reach, > even with our miniscule 7 tps. Clinging to that goal needlessly limits the > capability for the network to scale to be a useful global payments system > These are good points and got me thinking (but I think you're wrong). If we really want each of the 10 billion people soon using bitcoin once per month, that will require 500MB blocks. That's about 2 TB per month. And if you relay it to 4 peers, it's 10 TB per month. Which I suppose is doable for a home desktop, so you can just run a pruned full node with all transactions from the past month. But how do you sync all those transactions if you've never done this before or it's been a while since you did? I think it currently takes at least 3 hours to fully sync 30 GB of transactions. So 2 TB will take 8 days, then you take a bit more time to sync the days that passed while you were syncing. So that's doable, but at a certain point, like 10 TB per month (still only 5 transactions per month per person), you will need 41 days to sync that month, so you will never catch up. So I think in order to keep the very important property of anyone being able to start clean and verify the thing, then we need to think of bitcoin as a system that does transactions for a large number of users at once in one transaction, and not a system where each person will make a ~monthly transaction on. We need to therefore rely on sidechains, treechains, lightning channels, etc... I'm not a bitcoin wizard and this is just my second post on this mailing list, so I may be missing something. So please someone, correct me if I'm wrong. > > > > On 05/07/2015 03:54 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote: > > On Thu, May 7, 2015 at 3:31 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: > > >> (2) Leveraging fee pressure at 1MB to solve the problem is actually >> really a bad idea. It's really bad while Bitcoin is still growing, and >> relying on fee pressure at 1 MB severely impacts attractiveness and >> adoption potential of Bitcoin (due to high fees and unreliability). But >> more importantly, it ignores the fact that for a 7 tps is pathetic for a >> global transaction system. It is a couple orders of magnitude too low for >> any meaningful commercial activity to occur. If we continue with a cap of >> 7 tps forever, Bitcoin *will* fail. Or at best, it will fail to be >> useful for the vast majority of the world (which probably leads to >> failure). We shouldn't be talking about fee pressure until we hit 700 tps, >> which is probably still too low. >> > [...] > > 1) Agree that 7 tps is too low > > 2) Where do you want to go? Should bitcoin scale up to handle all the > world's coffees? > > This is hugely unrealistic. 700 tps is 100MB blocks, 14.4 GB/day -- > just for a single feed. If you include relaying to multiple nodes, plus > serving 500 million SPV clients en grosse, who has the capacity to run such > a node? By the time we get to fee pressure, in your scenario, our network > node count is tiny and highly centralized. > > 3) In RE "fee pressure" -- Do you see the moral hazard to a software-run > system? It is an intentional, human decision to flood the market with > supply, thereby altering the economics, forcing fees to remain low in the > hopes of achieving adoption. I'm pro-bitcoin and obviously want to see > bitcoin adoption - but I don't want to sacrifice every decentralized > principle and become a central banker in order to get there. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight. > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > -- PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28 49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647