* [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption @ 2021-01-16 0:07 Chris Belcher 2021-01-16 2:52 ` dev_f 2021-01-18 20:38 ` Lucas Ontivero 0 siblings, 2 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Chris Belcher @ 2021-01-16 0:07 UTC (permalink / raw) To: bitcoin-dev PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet. I've made a wiki page tracking adoption: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page. Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll quote here: > you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t matter. > > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have accounts to websites. https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase adoption of PayJoin? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption 2021-01-16 0:07 [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption Chris Belcher @ 2021-01-16 2:52 ` dev_f 2021-01-16 6:15 ` Craig Raw 2021-01-18 20:38 ` Lucas Ontivero 1 sibling, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: dev_f @ 2021-01-16 2:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Belcher, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3301 bytes --] Hey Chris, I assume that a major reason for the lack of adoption is the lack of visibility. I personally first found out about PayJoin when using BTCPayServer for a donation and being told by the site that PayJoin was available (https://hrf.org/donate-bitcoin/payjoin/). The wiki page you created is a good starting point. Bringing up the issue of implementing PayJoin directly with the companies / in the respective software repos seems like it would be a strong first step for greater adoption. Gets more eyes on it in general. (Directly contributing to the software by writing an implementation is obviously the most helpful, though clearly harder.) As a second option, pushing merchants towards accepting Bitcoin specifically via software like BTCPayServer, which already supports PayJoin, might be immensely helpful when Bitcoin adoption itself rises. Fitti Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Saturday, January 16th, 2021 at 1:07 AM, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the > > potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on > > bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has > > already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as > > BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet. > > I've made a wiki page tracking adoption: > > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption > > It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page. > > Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with > > the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll > > quote here: > > > you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an > > exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you > > use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and > > adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to > > increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become > > rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your > > account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did > > wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t > > matter. > > > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this > > trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal > > wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere > > except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a > > regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have > > accounts to websites. > > https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye > > If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for > > the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase > > adoption of PayJoin? > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev [-- Attachment #1.2: publickey - dev@fitti.io - 0xC413574E.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-keys, Size: 640 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 249 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption 2021-01-16 2:52 ` dev_f @ 2021-01-16 6:15 ` Craig Raw 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Craig Raw @ 2021-01-16 6:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: dev_f, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4601 bytes --] Hey Chris, You can add Sparrow Wallet to the list for Sending :) I think one of the barriers to greater Payjoin adoption is the need for a server endpoint on the receiving side. Ideally, all wallets should be able to conduct Payjoin transactions with each other. This would require a different mechanism to exchange the PSBTs, but otherwise the specification should need no amendment. Samourai has implemented their Soroban protocol to do this over Tor, but as far as I know it's not yet documented. Given Payjoin is fee efficient (much more so than coinjoin) and relatively simple to implement, it appears to hold great promise in disrupting blockchain analysis. I'd love to see a standard that wallets can adopt to receive Payjoin transactions without a server endpoint. Craig On Sat, Jan 16, 2021 at 5:13 AM dev_f via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Hey Chris, > > I assume that a major reason for the lack of adoption is the lack of > visibility. > I personally first found out about PayJoin when using BTCPayServer for a > donation > and being told by the site that PayJoin was available ( > https://hrf.org/donate-bitcoin/payjoin/). > The wiki page you created is a good starting point. Bringing up the issue > of implementing > PayJoin directly with the companies / in the respective software repos > seems like it would > be a strong first step for greater adoption. Gets more eyes on it in > general. > (Directly contributing to the software by writing an implementation is > obviously the > most helpful, though clearly harder.) > > As a second option, pushing merchants towards accepting Bitcoin > specifically via > software like BTCPayServer, which already supports PayJoin, might be > immensely > helpful when Bitcoin adoption itself rises. > > Fitti > > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. > > ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ > > On Saturday, January 16th, 2021 at 1:07 AM, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > > PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the > > > > > potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on > > > > > bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has > > > > > already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as > > > > > BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet. > > > > > I've made a wiki page tracking adoption: > > > > > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption > > > > > It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page. > > > > > Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with > > > > > the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll > > > > > quote here: > > > > > > you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an > > > > > exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you > > > > > use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and > > > > > adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to > > > > > increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become > > > > > rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your > > > > > account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did > > > > > wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t > > > > > matter. > > > > > > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this > > > > > trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal > > > > > wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere > > > > > except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a > > > > > regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have > > > > > accounts to websites. > > > > > https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye > > > > > If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for > > > > > the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase > > > > > adoption of PayJoin? > > > > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > > > > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > > > > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6215 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption 2021-01-16 0:07 [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption Chris Belcher 2021-01-16 2:52 ` dev_f @ 2021-01-18 20:38 ` Lucas Ontivero 2021-01-19 15:44 ` Chris Belcher 1 sibling, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: Lucas Ontivero @ 2021-01-18 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Belcher, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4010 bytes --] Hi Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a good idea. ----- Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21 uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address). All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is more or less true for many people. Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all. The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably using a output descriptor you created to share with me). Sorry for the long semi-random rant. El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (< bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>) escribió: > PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the > potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on > bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has > already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as > BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet. > > I've made a wiki page tracking adoption: > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption > > It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page. > > > Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with > the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll > quote here: > > > you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an > exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you > use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and > adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to > increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become > rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your > account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did > wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t > matter. > > > > The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this > trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal > wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere > except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a > regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have > accounts to websites. > > https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye > > If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for > the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase > adoption of PayJoin? > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4920 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption 2021-01-18 20:38 ` Lucas Ontivero @ 2021-01-19 15:44 ` Chris Belcher 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Chris Belcher @ 2021-01-19 15:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lucas Ontivero, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Regarding incentives, privacy is itself an incentive. If your business suffers from being spied on (for example you're a casino or p2p exchange, and regulated exchanges keep banning your customers) then the cost of adopting payjoin is worth it. That's why I expect and hope that p2p exchanges will be one of the earlier adopters. While researching for the Adoption page I was surprised to find that one exchange has already adopted PayJoin: a no-signup altcoin exchange called sideshift.ai On 18/01/2021 20:38, Lucas Ontivero wrote: > Hi > > Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a > good idea. > > ----- > > Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit > transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not > using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not > so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they > are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins > requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX > is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21 > uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an > exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address). > All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is > more or less true for many people. > > Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by > default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to > spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it > should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't > require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable > slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all. > > The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes > where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know > something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list > and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it > can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably > using a output descriptor you created to share with me). > > Sorry for the long semi-random rant. > > El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (< > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>) escribió: > >> PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the >> potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on >> bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has >> already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as >> BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet. >> >> I've made a wiki page tracking adoption: >> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption >> >> It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page. >> >> >> Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with >> the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll >> quote here: >> >>> you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an >> exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you >> use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and >> adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to >> increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become >> rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your >> account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did >> wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t >> matter. >>> >>> The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this >> trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal >> wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere >> except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a >> regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have >> accounts to websites. >> >> https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye >> >> If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for >> the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase >> adoption of PayJoin? >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2021-01-19 15:44 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 5+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2021-01-16 0:07 [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption Chris Belcher 2021-01-16 2:52 ` dev_f 2021-01-16 6:15 ` Craig Raw 2021-01-18 20:38 ` Lucas Ontivero 2021-01-19 15:44 ` Chris Belcher
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