From: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail•com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>,
security@ariard•me,
"lightning-dev\\\\@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
<lightning-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] OP_Expire and Coinbase-Like Behavior: Making HTLCs Safer by Letting Transactions Expire Safely
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2023 05:25:24 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALZpt+GBcqquPtf0YB07Rcy2OS0kUhv86s6g=69VrfSE72cYJQ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <ZUNBHsw2BldPLvPc@petertodd.org>
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> To be clear, are you talking about anchor channels or non-anchor channels?
> Because in anchor channels, all outputs other than the anchor outputs
provided
> for fee bumping can't be spent until the commitment transaction is mined,
which
> means RBF/CPFP isn't relevant.
I think the distinction is irrelevant here as pre-anchor channel if I have
one spendable HTLC output spend and I gain knowledge of my counterparty
commitment transaction from networks mempools, the spend is malleable and
can be used as a CPFP. If you assume anchor channels, you have 2 anchor
outputs as long both parties have balance outputs or pending HTLCs.
Though pre-anchor, legacy channels the counterparty commitment transaction
will have to be attached with a fee under min mempool fee for the
replacement cycling to happen, and let network congestion happen.
I think the more interesting case is a future world with package relay
deployed at the p2p level and anchor output on the lightning-side. Here the
most advanced replacement as illustrated in the test can happen (where
commitment has an anchor output - see L125).
Best,
Antoine
Le jeu. 2 nov. 2023 à 06:26, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> a écrit :
> On Thu, Nov 02, 2023 at 05:24:36AM +0000, Antoine Riard wrote:
> > Hi Peter,
> >
> > > So, why can't we make the HTLC-preimage path expire? Traditionally,
> we've
> > tried
> > > to ensure that transactions - once valid - remain valid forever. We do
> > this
> > > because we don't want transactions to become impossible to mine in the
> > event of
> > > a large reorganization.
> >
> > I don't know if reverse time-lock where a lightning spending path becomes
> > invalid after a block height or epoch point solves the more advanced
> > replacement cycling attacks, where a malicious commitment transaction
> > itself replaces out a honest commitment transaction, and the
> > child-pay-for-parent of this malicious transaction is itself replaced out
> > by the attacker, leading to the automatic trimming of the malicious
> > commitment transaction.
>
> To be clear, are you talking about anchor channels or non-anchor channels?
> Because in anchor channels, all outputs other than the anchor outputs
> provided
> for fee bumping can't be spent until the commitment transaction is mined,
> which
> means RBF/CPFP isn't relevant.
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-11-03 5:25 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 58+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-10-16 16:57 [bitcoin-dev] Full Disclosure: CVE-2023-40231 / CVE-2023-40232 / CVE-2023-40233 / CVE-2023-40234 "All your mempool are belong to us" Antoine Riard
2023-10-16 19:13 ` Peter Todd
2023-10-16 22:10 ` Matt Morehouse
2023-10-17 1:11 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-20 10:47 ` Peter Todd
2023-10-20 11:18 ` Jochen Hoenicke
2023-10-16 22:51 ` Olaoluwa Osuntokun
2023-10-17 7:21 ` [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] " ziggie1984
2023-10-17 10:34 ` ZmnSCPxj
2023-10-17 18:34 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-20 10:31 ` Peter Todd
2023-10-20 11:03 ` Peter Todd
2023-10-20 18:35 ` Matt Morehouse
2023-10-20 21:05 ` Matt Corallo
2023-10-21 0:15 ` Peter Todd
2023-10-21 1:03 ` Matt Corallo
2023-10-21 1:25 ` Peter Todd
2023-10-21 1:55 ` Matt Corallo
2023-10-21 2:43 ` Peter Todd
2023-10-23 16:09 ` Matt Corallo
2023-10-17 17:47 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-17 18:47 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-18 0:17 ` Matt Corallo
2023-10-18 2:57 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-19 8:12 ` Bastien TEINTURIER
2023-10-19 16:23 ` Matt Morehouse
2023-10-19 17:22 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-19 17:53 ` Matt Morehouse
2023-10-19 19:33 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-21 0:18 ` Olaoluwa Osuntokun
2023-11-17 22:36 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-19 18:02 ` Matt Corallo
2023-10-20 6:56 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Antoine Riard
2023-10-21 20:05 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-27 0:43 ` Peter Todd
2023-11-02 4:46 ` Antoine Riard
2023-10-21 0:09 ` [bitcoin-dev] OP_Expire and Coinbase-Like Behavior: Making HTLCs Safer by Letting Transactions Expire Safely Peter Todd
2023-10-21 8:58 ` David A. Harding
2023-10-21 10:31 ` Peter Todd
2023-10-22 8:30 ` vjudeu
2023-10-23 11:10 ` [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] " ZmnSCPxj
2023-10-23 15:45 ` Peter Todd
2023-11-02 5:24 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Antoine Riard
2023-11-02 6:26 ` Peter Todd
2023-11-02 17:07 ` Matt Morehouse
2023-11-03 5:27 ` Antoine Riard
2023-11-03 5:25 ` Antoine Riard [this message]
2023-11-04 7:26 ` Peter Todd
2023-11-06 18:45 ` Antoine Riard
2023-11-07 11:11 ` [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] " ZmnSCPxj
2023-11-07 15:44 ` Antoine Riard
2023-11-08 0:51 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Peter Todd
2023-11-08 2:06 ` Peter Todd
2023-11-13 2:18 ` Antoine Riard
2023-11-14 19:50 ` Peter Todd
[not found] ` <CALZpt+H38cU9L8kq0mSYCDirzL39fxhdoz4pAPiS8dGJP8akKg@mail.gmail.com>
2023-11-15 17:53 ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Antoine Riard
2023-10-22 4:49 ` [bitcoin-dev] Full Disclosure: CVE-2023-40231 / CVE-2023-40232 / CVE-2023-40233 / CVE-2023-40234 "All your mempool are belong to us" Nadav Ivgi
2023-10-23 8:49 ` David A. Harding
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