Hi Zeeman,

See my comments at the time of OP_EVICT original publication.

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-February/019939.html

"I think in the context of (off-chain) payment pool, OP_EVICT requires
participant cooperation *after* the state update to allow a single
participant to withdraw her funds.

I believe this is unsafe if we retain as an off-chain construction security
requirement that a participant should have the unilateral means to enforce
the latest agreed upon state at any time during the construction lifetime".

I think this level of covenant flexibility is still wished for CoinPool as
a fundamental property, and this is offered by TLUV or MERKLESUB.
On the other hand, I think OP_EVICT introduces this idea of *subgroup
novation* (i.e `K-of-N`) of a PT2R scriptpubkey.

To the best of my understanding, I think there is not yet any sound
covenant proposal aiming to combine TLUV and EVICT-like semantics in a
consistent set of Script primitives to enable "cut-through" updates, while
still retaining the key property of unilateral withdraw of promised
balances in any-order.

I might go to work on crafting one, though for now I'm still interested to
understand better if on-chain "cut-through" is the best direction to solve
the fundamental high interactivity issue of channel factory and payment
pool over punishment-based ideas.

Best,
Antoine

Le mar. 26 sept. 2023 à 07:51, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> a écrit :

> Good morning Antoine,
>
> Does `OP_EVICT` not fit?
>
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-February/019926.html
>
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj
>
>
> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>
> ------- Original Message -------
> On Monday, September 25th, 2023 at 6:18 PM, Antoine Riard via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>
> > Payment pools and channel factories are afflicted by severe
> interactivity constraints worsening with the number of users owning an
> off-chain balance in the construction. The security of user funds is
> paramount on the ability to withdraw unilaterally from the off-chain
> construction. As such any update applied to the off-chain balances requires
> a signature contribution from the unanimity of the construction users to
> ensure this ability is conserved along updates.
> > As soon as one user starts to be offline or irresponsive, the updates of
> the off-chain balances must have to be halted and payments progress are
> limited among subsets of 2 users sharing a channel. Different people have
> proposed solutions to this issue: introducing a coordinator, partitioning
> or layering balances in off-chain users subsets. I think all those
> solutions have circled around a novel issue introduced, namely equivocation
> of off-chain balances at the harm of construction counterparties [0].
> >
> > As ZmnSCPxj pointed out recently, one way to mitigate this equivocation
> consists in punishing the cheating pre-nominated coordinator on an external
> fidelity bond. One can even imagine more trust-mimized and decentralized
> fraud proofs to implement this mitigation, removing the need of a
> coordinator [1].
> >
> > However, I believe punishment equivocation to be game-theory sound
> should compensate a defrauded counterparty of the integrity of its lost
> off-chain balance. As one cheating counterparty can equivocate in the
> worst-case against all the other counterparties in the construction, one
> fidelity bond should be equal to ( C - 1 ) * B satoshi amount, where C is
> the number of construction counterparty and B the initial off-chain balance
> of the cheating counterparty.
> >
> > Moreover, I guess it is impossible to know ahead of a partition or
> transition who will be the "honest" counterparties from the "dishonest"
> ones, therefore this ( C - 1 ) * B-sized fidelity bond must be maintained
> by every counterparty in the pool or factory. On this ground, I think this
> mitigation and other corrective ones are not economically practical for
> large-scale pools among a set of anonymous users.
> >
> > I think the best solution to solve the interactivity issue which is
> realistic to design is one ruling out off-chain group equivocation in a
> prophylactic fashion. The pool or factory funding utxo should be edited in
> an efficient way to register new off-chain subgroups, as lack of
> interactivity from a subset of counterparties demands it.
> >
> > With CoinPool, there is already this idea of including a user pubkey and
> balance amount to each leaf composing the Taproot tree while preserving the
> key-path spend in case of unanimity in the user group. Taproot leaves can
> be effectively regarded as off-chain user accounts available to realize
> privacy-preserving payments and contracts.
> >
> > I think one (new ?) idea can be to introduce taproot leaves
> "cut-through" spends where multiple leaves are updated with a single
> witness, interactively composed by the owners of the spent leaves. This
> spend sends back the leaves amount to a new single leaf, aggregating the
> amounts and user pubkeys. The user leaves not participating in this
> "cut-through" are inherited with full integrity in the new version of the
> Taproot tree, at the gain of no interactivity from their side.
> >
> > Let's say you have a CoinPool funded and initially set with Alice, Bob,
> Caroll, Dave and Eve. Each pool participant has a leaf L.x committing to an
> amount A.x and user pubkey P.x, where x is the user name owning a leaf.
> >
> > Bob and Eve are deemed to be offline by the Alice, Caroll and Dave
> subset (the ACD group).
> >
> > The ACD group composes a cut-through spend of L.a + L.c + L.d. This
> spends generates a new leaf L.(acd) leaf committing to amount A.(acd) and
> P.(acd).
> >
> > Amount A.(acd) = A.a + A.c + A.d and pubkey P.(acd) = P.a + P.c + P.d.
> >
> > Bob's leaf L.b and Eve's leaf L.e are left unmodified.
> >
> > The ACD group generates a new Taproot tree T' = L.(acd) + L.b + L.e,
> where the key-path K spend including the original unanimity of pool
> counterparties is left unmodified.
> >
> > The ACD group can confirm a transaction spending the pool funding utxo
> to a new single output committing to the scriptpubkey K + T'.
> >
> > From then, the ACD group can pursue off-chain balance updates among the
> subgroup thanks to the new P.(acd) and relying on the known Eltoo
> mechanism. There is no possibility for any member of the ACD group to
> equivocate with Bob or Eve in a non-observable fashion.
> >
> > Once Bob and Eve are online and ready to negotiate an on-chain pool
> "refresh" transaction, the conserved key-path spend can be used to
> re-equilibrate the Taproot tree, prune out old subgroups unlikely to be
> used and provision future subgroups, all with a compact spend based on
> signature aggregation.
> >
> > Few new Taproot tree update script primitives have been proposed, e.g
> [2]. Though I think none with the level of flexibility offered to generate
> leaves cut-through spends, or even batch of "cut-through" where M subgroups
> are willing to spend N leaves to compose P new subgroups fan-out in Q new
> outputs, with showing a single on-chain witness. I believe such a
> hypothetical primitive can also reduce the chain space consumed in the
> occurrence of naive mass pool withdraws at the same time.
> >
> > I think this solution to the high-interactivity issue of payment pools
> and factories shifts the burden on each individual user to pre-commit fast
> Taproot tree traversals, allowing them to compose new pool subgroups as
> fluctuations in pool users' level of liveliness demand it. Pool efficiency
> becomes the sum of the quality of user prediction on its counterparties'
> liveliness during the construction lifetime. Recursive taproot tree spends
> or more efficient accumulator than merkle tree sounds ideas to lower the
> on-chain witness space consumed by every pool in the average
> non-interactive case.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Antoine
> >
> > [0]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-April/020370.html
> > [1]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2023-August/004043.html
> > [2]
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-September/019420.html
>