Hi Gloria,

Thanks for the progress on package RBF, few early questions.

> 2. Any descendant of an unconfirmed V3 transaction must also be V3.

> 3. An unconfirmed V3 transaction cannot have more than 1 descendant.

If you're a miner and you receive a non-V3, second descendant of an
unconfirmed V3 transaction, if the offered fee is in the top mempool
backlog, I think you would have an interest to accept such a transaction.

So I'm not sure if those two rules are compatible with miners incentives...

> 4. A V3 transaction that has an unconfirmed V3 ancestor cannot be
>    larger than 1000 virtual bytes.

If I understand correctly the 1000 vb upper bound rational, it would be to
constraint the pinning counterparty to attach a high fee to a child due to
the limited size, if they would like this transaction to be stuck in the
network mempools. By doing so  this child has high odds to confirm.

I still wonder if this compatible with miner incentives in period of empty
mempools, in the sense that if you've already a V3 transaction of size
100Kvb offering 2 sat/vb, it's more interesting than a V3 replacement
candidate of size 1000 vb offering 10 sat/vb. It could be argued the former
should be conserved.

(That said, the hard thing with any replacement strategy we might evict a
parent transaction *now* to which is attached a high-feerate child *latter*
making for a utxo considered the best ancestor set. Maybe in the long-term
miners should keep every transaction ever accepted...)

> (Lower bound) the smaller this limit, the fewer UTXOs a child may use
> to fund this fee-bump. For example, only allowing the V3 child to have
> 2 inputs would require L2 protocols to manage a wallet with high-value
> UTXOs and make batched fee-bumping impossible. However, as the
> fee-bumping child only needs to fund fees (as opposed to payments),
> just a few UTXOs should suffice.

Reminder for L2 devs, batched fee-bumping of time-sensitive confirmations
of commitment transactions is unsafe, as the counterparty could enter in a
"cat-and-mouse" game to replace one of the batch element at each block to
delay confirmation of the remaining elements in the batch, I think.

On the other hand, I wonder if we wouldn't want a higher bound. LN wallets
are likely to have one big UTXO in their fee-bumping reserve pool, as the
cost of acquiring UTXO is non-null and in the optimistic case, you don't
need to do unilateral closure. Let's say you close dozens of channels at
the same time, a UTXO pool management strategy might be to fan-out the
first spends UTXOs in N fan-out outputs ready to feed the remaining
in-flight channels.

> 1. The rule around unconfirmed inputs was
> originally "A package may include new unconfirmed inputs, but the
> ancestor feerate of the child must be at least as high as the ancestor
> feerates of every transaction being replaced."

Note, I think we would like this new RBF rule to also apply to single
transaction package, e.g second-stage HTLC transactions, where a
counterparty pins a HTLC-preimage by abusing rule 3. In that case, the
honest LN node should be able to broadcast a "at least as high ancestor
feerate" HTLC-timeout transaction. With `option_anchor_outputs" there is no
unconfirmed ancestor to replace, as the commitment transaction, whatever
the party it is originating from, should already be confirmed.

> "Is this a privacy issue, i.e. doesn't it allow fingerprinting LN
transactions based on nVersion?"

As of today, I think yes you can already fingerprint LN transactions on
the  spec-defined amount value of the anchor outputs, 330 sats. There is
always one of them on post-anchor commitment transactions. And sadly I
would say we'll always have tricky fingerprints leaking from unilateral LN
closures such as HTLC/PTLC timelocks...

> "Can a V2 transaction replace a V3 transaction and vice versa?"

IIUC, a V3 package could replace a V2 package, with the benefit of the new
package RBF rules applied. I think this would be a significant advantage
for LN, as for the current ~85k of opened channels, the old V2 states
shouldn't be pinning vectors. Currently, commitment transactions signal
replaceability.

Le ven. 23 sept. 2022 à 11:26, Gloria Zhao via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> a écrit :

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm writing to propose a very simple set of mempool/transaction relay
> policies intended to aid L2/contract protocols. I realized that
> the previously proposed Package Mempool Accept package RBF [1]
> had a few remaining problems after digging into the RBF logic more [2].
> This additional set of policies solves them without requiring a huge RBF
> overhaul.
>
> I've written an implementation (and docs) for Bitcoin Core:
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/25038
>
> (You may notice that this proposal incorporates feedback on the PR -
> thanks Suhas Daftuar, Gregory Sanders, Bastien Teinturier, Anthony Towns,
> and others.)
>
> If you are interested in using package RBF/relay to bump presigned
> transactions, I think you may be interested in reviewing this proposal.
> This should solve Rule 3 pinning and perhaps allow us
> to get rid of CPFP carve-out (yay!). I'm keen to hear if people find
> the 1-anchor-output, 1000vB child limit too restrictive. Also, if you find
> a
> pinning attack or something that makes it unusable for you, I would
> really really like to know.
>
> Note that transactions with nVersion=3 ("V3 transactions") are
> currently non-standard in Bitcoin Core. That means **anything that was
> standard before this policy change would still be standard
> afterwards.** If you don't want your transactions to be subject to
> these rules, just continue whatever you're doing and don't use
> nVersion=3. AFAICT this shouldn't break anything, but let me know if
> this would be disruptive for you?
>
> **New Policies:**
>
> This includes:
> - a set of additional policy rules applying to V3 transactions
> - modifications to package RBF rules
>
> **V3 transactions:**
>
> Existing standardness rules apply to V3 (e.g. min/max tx weight,
> standard output types, cleanstack, etc.). The following additional
> rules apply to V3:
>
> 1. A V3 transaction can be replaced, even if it does not signal BIP125
>    replaceability. (It must also meet the other RBF rules around fees,
> etc. for replacement to happen).
>
> 2. Any descendant of an unconfirmed V3 transaction must also be V3.
>
> *Rationale*: Combined with Rule 1, this gives us the property of
> "inherited" replaceability signaling when descendants of unconfirmed
> transactions are created. Additionally, checking whether a transaction
> signals replaceability this way does not require mempool traversal,
> and does not change based on what transactions are mined. It also
> makes subsequent rules about descendant limits much easier to check.
>
> *Note*: The descendant of a *confirmed* V3 transaction does not need to be
> V3.
>
> 3. An unconfirmed V3 transaction cannot have more than 1 descendant.
>
> *Rationale*: (Upper bound) the larger the descendant limit, the more
> transactions may need to be replaced. This is a problematic pinning
> attack, i.e., a malicious counterparty prevents the transaction from
> being replaced by adding many descendant transactions that aren't
> fee-bumping.
>
> (Lower bound) at least 1 descendant is required to allow CPFP of the
> presigned transaction. The contract protocol can create presigned
> transactions paying 0 fees and 1 output for attaching a CPFP at
> broadcast time ("anchor output"). Without package RBF, multiple anchor
> outputs would be required to allow each counterparty to fee-bump any
> presigned transaction. With package RBF, since the presigned
> transactions can replace each other, 1 anchor output is sufficient.
>
> 4. A V3 transaction that has an unconfirmed V3 ancestor cannot be
>    larger than 1000 virtual bytes.
>
> *Rationale*: (Upper bound) the larger the descendant size limit, the
> more vbytes may need to be replaced. With default limits, if the child
> is e.g. 100,000vB, that might be an additional 100,000sats (at
> 1sat/vbyte) or more, depending on the feerate.
>
> (Lower bound) the smaller this limit, the fewer UTXOs a child may use
> to fund this fee-bump. For example, only allowing the V3 child to have
> 2 inputs would require L2 protocols to manage a wallet with high-value
> UTXOs and make batched fee-bumping impossible. However, as the
> fee-bumping child only needs to fund fees (as opposed to payments),
> just a few UTXOs should suffice.
>
> With a limit of 1000 virtual bytes, depending on the output types, the
> child can have 6-15 UTXOs, which should be enough to fund a fee-bump
> without requiring a carefully-managed UTXO pool. With 1000 virtual
> bytes as the descendant limit, the cost to replace a V3 transaction
> has much lower variance.
>
> *Rationale*: This makes the rule very easily "tacked on" to existing
> logic for policy and wallets. A transaction may be up to 100KvB on its
> own (`MAX_STANDARD_TX_WEIGHT`) and 101KvB with descendants
> (`DEFAULT_DESCENDANT_SIZE_LIMIT_KVB`). If an existing V3 transaction
> in the mempool is 100KvB, its descendant can only be 1000vB, even if
> the policy is 10KvB.
>
> **Package RBF modifications:**
>
> 1. The rule around unconfirmed inputs was
> originally "A package may include new unconfirmed inputs, but the
> ancestor feerate of the child must be at least as high as the ancestor
> feerates of every transaction being replaced."
>
> The package may still include new unconfirmed inputs. However,
> the new rule is modified to be "The minimum between package feerate
> and ancestor feerate of the child is not lower than the individual
> feerates of all directly conflicting transactions and the ancestor
> feerates of all original transactions."
>
> *Rationale*: We are attempting to ensure that the replacement
> transactions are not less incentive-compatible to mine. However, a
> package/transaction's ancestor feerate is not perfectly representative
> of its incentive compatibility; it may overestimate (some subset of
> the ancestors could be included by itself if it has other high-feerate
> descendants or are themselves higher feerate than this
> package/transaction). Instead, we use the minimum between the package
> feerate and ancestor feerate of the child as a more conservative value
> than what was proposed originally.
>
> 2. A new rule is added, requiring that all package transactions with
> mempool conflicts to be V3. This also means the "sponsoring"
> child transaction must be V3.
>
> *Note*: Combined with the V3 rules, this means the package must be
> a child-with-parents package. Since package validation is only
> attempted if the transactions do not pay sufficient fees to be
> accepted on their own, this effectively means that only V3
> transactions can pay to replace their ancestors' conflicts, and only
> V3 transactions' replacements may be paid for by a descendant.
>
> *Rationale*: The fee-related rules are economically rational for
> ancestor packages, but not necessarily other types of packages.
> A child-with-parents package is a type of ancestor package. It
> may be fine to allow any ancestor package, but it's more difficult
> to account for all of the possibilities. For example, it gets much
> harder to see that we're applying the descendant limits correctly if
> the package has a gnarly, many-generation, non-tree shape. I'm also
> not sure if this policy is 100% incentive-compatible if the sponsor
> is not a direct descendant of the sponsee.
>
> Please see doc/policy/version3_transactions.md and
> doc/policy/packages.md in the PR for the full set of rules.
>
> **Intended usage for LN:**
>
> Commitment transactions should be V3 and have 1 anchor output. They
> can be signed with 0 fees (or 1sat/vbyte) once package relay is deployed
> on a significant portion of the network. If the commitment tx must
> be broadcast, determine the desired feerate at broadcast time and
> spend the anchor output in a high feerate transaction. I'm going to
> call the broadcasted commitment tx "the parent" and the attached
> fee-bumping tx "the child."
>
> - This child must be V3.
> - This child must be at most 1000vB. Note this restricts the
>   number of inputs you can use to fund the fee bump. Depending
> on the output types, this is around 6-15.
> - One child may fund fees for multiple commitment tx ("batched
>   fee-bumping").
> - To do a second fee-bump to add more fees, replace the
>   *child* with a higher-feerate tx. Do not try to attach a grandchild.
>
> Otherwise, never try to spend from an unconfirmed V3 transaction. The
> descendant limits for V3 transactions are very restrictive.
>
> **Expected Questions:**
>
> "Does this fix Rule 3 Pinning?"
> Yes. The V3 descendant limit restricts both you and your counterparty.
> Assuming nodes adopted this policy, you may reasonably assume that you
> only need to replace the commitment transaction + up to 1000vB.
>
> "Only 1 anchor output? What if I need to bump counterparty's commitment tx
> in mempool?"
> You won't need to fee-bump a counterparty's commitment tx using CPFP.
> You would just package RBF it by attaching a high-feerate child to
> your commitment tx.
>
> "Is this a privacy issue, i.e. doesn't it allow fingerprinting LN
> transactions based on nVersion?"
> Indeed it may be unrealistic to assume V3 transactions will be in
> widespread use outside of L2. IIUC, unilateral closes are already
> obvious LN transactions because of the HTLC inputs. For e.g.
> cooperative closes and opens, I think it makes sense to continue using
> V2. So, unless I'm missing something, this shouldn't make it worse.
>
> "So a V3 transaction that doesn't signal BIP125 replaceability is
> replaceable? Is that a backward compatibility issue?"
> Yes it's replaceable. It's not an issue AFAICT because,
> under previous policy, the V3 transaction wouldn't have been
> in the mempool in the first place.
>
> "Can a V2 transaction replace a V3 transaction and vice versa?"
> Yes, otherwise someone can use V3 transactions to censor V2
> transactions spending shared inputs. Note if the
> original V3 transaction has an unconfirmed V3 parent, this would
> violate the "inherited V3" rule and would be rejected.
>
> Thanks for reading! Feedback and review would be much appreciated.
>
> [1]:
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-September/019464.html
> [2]:
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-January/019817.html
>
> Best,
> Gloria
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>