From: Adam Back <adam@cypherspace•org>
To: Mike Hearn <hearn@vinumeris•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Let's deploy BIP65 CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY!
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:15:03 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALqxMTGqGbJLFNerw+1goR2g54+vn=ECgzx++_oRznrzJWfd4g@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CA+w+GKRKGS=KZrLtiW8Zbn4EQH_TELfQR+TfrADCMXLR22Q+tw@mail.gmail.com>
On 30 September 2015 at 13:11, Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>> Have I missed a proposal to change BIP101 to be a real hardfork
>
> There's no such thing as a "real" hard fork - don't try and move the goal
> posts. SPV clients do not need any changes to do the right thing with BIP
> 101, they will follow the new chain automatically, so it needs no changes.
BIP101 is a hybrid: in some ways it is a hard-fork and in other ways
it is a soft-fork. It is a hard-fork to full-nodes, but also a
soft-fork to SPV clients, as by definition the SPV miners are having
changes made whether they approve or not as they are not even aware of
the change.
> To repeat: CLTV does not have consensus at the moment.
I think people are saying CLTV is long discussed and does have consensus.
> Several people have asked several times now: given the very real and widely
> acknowledged downsides that come with a soft fork, what is the specific
> benefit to end users of doing them?
>
> Until that question is answered to my satisfaction I continue to object to
> this BIP on the grounds that the deployment creates financial risk
> unnecessarily.
Let's not conflate CLTV with a discussion about future possible
deployment methods. Forks are an interesting but different topic.
Soft-forks have a lot of mileage on them at this point, hard-forks do
not, and are anyway inherently higher riskier, even ignoring our lack
of practical experience with planned hard-forks.
With a soft-fork, while it's clear there is a temporary security model
reduction for SPV nodes (and non-upgraded full nodes) in the period
before they upgrade, this is preferable to the risks of a system-wide
coordinated hard-fork upgrade. There is some limit if the complexity
of soft-forking a feature is quite complicated (eg one could argue
that with soft-fork extension-blocks vs hard-fork method of increasing
block-size for example). So the balance, which I think is easily met
with CLTV, is that soft-fork is simple-enough technically and the
feature is entirely non-controversial and additive functionality
improvement without downside or reason for dissent.
To my view this is an answer to your question "what is the specific
benefit to end users of doing [soft-forks]" -- it is a lower risk, and
therefore faster way to deploy non-controversial (additive) changes.
Given the CLTV is useful for improving lightning efficiency this is
good for improving Bitcoin's scalability.
Adam
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2015-09-30 18:15 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 101+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2015-09-27 18:50 Peter Todd
2015-09-27 20:26 ` jl2012
2015-09-27 20:27 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-27 20:27 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-09-27 20:41 ` Btc Drak
2015-09-28 10:10 ` s7r
2015-09-28 10:48 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 11:00 ` Adam Back
2015-09-28 11:40 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 12:20 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-28 12:26 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 12:44 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-28 12:54 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-29 6:17 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-29 12:02 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 14:05 ` Btc Drak
2015-09-28 14:17 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 21:12 ` odinn
2015-09-28 22:16 ` Dave Scotese
2015-09-28 11:04 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-28 12:47 ` Tier Nolan
2015-09-28 13:01 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-09-28 13:28 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 13:43 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-09-28 14:14 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 13:21 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 13:41 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 14:29 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 14:33 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 14:43 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 14:51 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 15:05 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-28 15:38 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 16:52 ` jl2012
2015-09-28 17:14 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-28 23:17 ` Jorge Timón
2015-09-29 12:07 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-29 15:09 ` [bitcoin-dev] Why soft-forks? was: " Santino Napolitano
2015-09-29 13:30 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Jonathan Toomim (Toomim Bros)
2015-09-29 15:59 ` jl2012
2015-09-29 19:54 ` odinn
2015-09-29 18:31 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-09-30 17:11 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 17:58 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-01 14:23 ` Tom Harding
2015-09-30 18:15 ` Adam Back [this message]
2015-09-30 19:26 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-09-30 19:56 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 20:37 ` Jorge Timón
2015-09-30 21:06 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 22:14 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-01 0:11 ` Jorge Timón
2015-09-30 22:17 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-09-30 23:25 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-09-30 20:15 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-09-30 21:01 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 22:59 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-10-01 4:08 ` [bitcoin-dev] Crossing the line? [Was: Re: Let's deploy BIP65 CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY!] Tao Effect
2015-10-01 16:39 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-10-01 20:17 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-10-02 12:23 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-02 13:14 ` jl2012
2015-10-02 14:10 ` Marcel Jamin
2015-10-02 16:37 ` Gregory Maxwell
2015-10-07 15:00 ` [bitcoin-dev] Let's deploy BIP65 CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY! Anthony Towns
2015-10-07 15:46 ` Jonathan Toomim (Toomim Bros)
2015-10-07 16:02 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-10-07 16:25 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-10-07 16:26 ` Jonathan Toomim (Toomim Bros)
2015-10-07 16:38 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-10 7:23 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-12 7:02 ` digitsu
2015-10-12 16:33 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-12 17:06 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-13 0:08 ` digitsu
2015-09-29 20:03 ` Wladimir J. van der Laan
2015-09-30 4:05 ` Rusty Russell
2015-09-30 6:19 ` Adam Back
2015-09-30 12:30 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-30 15:55 ` Jorge Timón
2015-09-30 19:17 ` John Winslow
2015-10-01 0:06 ` Rusty Russell
2015-09-30 17:14 ` Adam Back
2015-10-01 0:04 ` Rusty Russell
2015-10-02 1:57 NotMike Hearn
2015-10-02 2:12 ` GC
2015-10-05 10:59 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-05 11:23 ` Jeff Garzik
2015-10-05 11:28 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-05 12:04 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 12:08 ` Clément Elbaz
2015-10-05 12:16 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 12:29 ` Clément Elbaz
2015-10-05 15:42 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 12:10 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-05 15:33 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 16:46 ` Mike Hearn
2015-10-06 6:20 ` Anthony Towns
2015-10-07 6:13 ` Micha Bailey
2015-10-05 13:29 ` Jorge Timón
2015-10-05 13:24 ` Jorge Timón
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