From: Adam Back <adam@cypherspace•org>
To: Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Increasing the OP_RETURN maximum payload size
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2014 11:20:56 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALqxMTH3qBU88xpSu_evuBfRwMmF3cLpM=L5DUExKc--cO_O1Q@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAPg+sBgM4ja0Y96KekJUN7Qg=o0xa1B0VUiiPuFQTYfrupoERg@mail.gmail.com>
It seems to me that people maybe arriving at the idea that they should
put transaction data in the blockchain for three related reasons: a)
its there and its convenient; and b) they are thinking about permanent
storage and being able to recover from backup using a master seed to a
bip32 address-set and want that logic to extend to the extra features;
c) they are thinking out of band, but they think they are forced to
send the data there in order to achieve atomicity.
I think the data that is sent on the blockchain is design-compressed
minimal necessary to achieve transaction integrity, and its important
for scalability that we keep it that way. About the rationales for
using that scarce scalability impacting channel:
a) convenience: is not a great reason to my mind. there are lots of
channels: email, web forms, point2point various transports NFC, TCP,
HTTP for payment protocol or extensions or new protocols. I think
there could be a need for a reliable privacy preserving store and
forward decentralised infrastructure to act as a channel for such
purposes. Until then email could be pretty convenient, if you dont
get the message due to spam filter etc ask them to resend. Or a web
storage locker related to the app.
b) backup: the blockchain is not an efficient reliable generic backup
mechanism because its broadcast. there are cheaper and relatively
simple ways to get end2end secure backup, the main challenge of which
is having secure keys and not forgetting them. bitcoin already has
that covered as its a central requirement of blockchain security. If
you want to archive your payment protocol receipts store them on some
cloud storage service or disk encrypted with related keys. for
example tahoe-lafs is optimised for the decentralised long-term
storage kind of use.
c) atomicity. as an example application requiring atomicity that may
use op_return stealth addresses where if the stealth auxiliary message
was sent out of band, then if message is lost, and the sender didnt
keep it or cant be relied on to care, then the money could be
permanently lost to both parties.
It occurred to me recently the kind of use requiring atomicity as
stealth address in c) can be achieved by sending both the extra
message (the stealth packet) AND the signed bitcoin transaction over
the reliable store & forward (eg email for now). Then the recipient
can do the calculations involving the auxiliary message and payment
message, and relay the message to the blockchain IFF they receive the
message (and chose to accept it). If they dont receive the message
they can ask for it to be resent. And if the payment is unclaimed the
sender still owns it and can double-spend to avoid risk of later
spending in their replacement message, or double-spend to self if the
recipient declines the payment. This has privacy, efficiency and SPV
advantages over sending to the blockchain.
I think we could make a case that as a design principle auxiliary data
could do with a bitcoin-related but separate reliable store and
forward channel, as email has been sufficiently spammed to end up with
loss of reliability. So I think a payment message transport would be
good here: invoices & receipts, and other things necessary for
applications, transaction disputes, records for normal p2p trades and
business functions reliable store and forward substrate with
decentralisation & privacy. For email the existing mechanism with
closest semantics, add-on privacy features exist: mixmaster,
nymservers, webmail + encryption, webmail over Tor etc for privacy
related uses. Slow transports can offer better security than
interactive transports.
Adam
On 17 November 2014 10:35, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail•com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 4:19 AM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail•com> wrote:
>>
>> On 11/16/2014 02:04 PM, Jorge Timón wrote:
>>> I remember people asking in #bitcoin-dev "Does anyone know any use
>>> case for greater sizes OP_RETURNs?" and me answering "I do not know of
>>> any use cases that require bigger sizes".
>>
>> For reference, there was a brief time where I was irritated that the
>> size had been reduced to 40 bytes, because I had an application where I
>> wanted to put ECDSA in signatures in the OP_RETURN, and you're going to
>> need at least 64 bytes for that. Unfortunately I can't remember now
>> what that application was, so it's difficult for me to argue for it.
>> But I don't think that's an unreasonable use case: sending a payment
>> with a signature, essentially all timestamped in the blockchain.
>
> You can still send the signature out of band (for example using the
> payment protocol), and just have the transaction commit to a hash of
> that signature (or message in general), either using an OP_RETURN
> output to store the hash, or using the pay-to-contract scheme that
> Jorge mentioned above. That has exactly the same timestamping
> properties.
>
> My main concern with OP_RETURN is that it seems to encourage people to
> use the blockchain as a convenient transport channel, rather than just
> for data that the world needs to see to validate it. I'd rather
> encourage solutions that don't require additional data there, which in
> many cases (but not all) is perfectly possible.
>
> --
> Pieter
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2014-11-17 11:21 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 17+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2014-11-16 16:21 Flavien Charlon
2014-11-16 17:24 ` Luke Dashjr
2014-11-16 18:44 ` Jorge Timón
2014-11-16 19:04 ` Jorge Timón
2014-11-17 3:19 ` Alan Reiner
2014-11-17 10:35 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-11-17 11:20 ` Adam Back [this message]
2014-11-17 12:31 ` Chris Pacia
2014-11-17 12:39 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-11-18 22:33 ` Chris Pacia
2014-11-17 11:43 ` Flavien Charlon
2014-11-17 12:00 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-11-17 12:22 ` Jorge Timón
2014-11-18 17:47 ` Btc Drak
2014-11-19 0:46 ` Flavien Charlon
2014-11-17 10:30 ` Wladimir
2014-11-20 23:39 ` Jean-Pierre Rupp
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