public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit
@ 2021-08-18 19:06 shymaa arafat
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: shymaa arafat @ 2021-08-18 19:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: bitcoin-dev

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1690 bytes --]

Dear Sir,

I'm not discussing the dust limit here, but I'm suggesting some mitigations
to the dust problem which tackles almost the same points mentioned here
especially the scalability of the UTXOS set and the corresponding Merkle
proofs/witnesses in Utreexo or any similar design ....
.
I suggest:
1-Dust UTXOS, along with burned & non-standard UTXOS, to be stored
separately in secondary storage; their Hashes in a separate Merkle too in
any accumulator design
(an earlier draft of the idea
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5343748.new#new)
.
-In fact, the idea of separating the real UTXO values was first suggested in
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.180817
In their words
"Similarly, one can think of a two-tier data structure where a UTXO subset
containing UTXOs with a low probability of being selected such as dust is
kept on disk, while the other UTXOs are kept in memory."
.
2-I suggest also that existing dust UTXOS (from the same paper, in some
cases a UTXO could be added as an extra input with the cost of 68*fee/byte)
, to be selected with large UTXO whenever they fit in a spending ( use one
large & one small to get rid of the small)
.
3-In general when user is not willing to leave the dust to the fee, and if
there's no dust UTXOS, do not let the coin selection algorithm select the
closest match; let it choose the smallest that doesn't create dust.
For example if there's UTXOS 0.00013 & 0.00012 and user want to spend
0.0001198 choose 0.00013 so that the change is not dust (with same cost).
.
Thank you for your time,
This is the first time I send a suggestion to your emailing list, so sorry
if I missed any regulations
.
Shymaa M. Arafat

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2501 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread
* [bitcoin-dev] Removing the Dust Limit
@ 2021-08-08 18:52 Jeremy
  2021-08-08 21:51 ` [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] " David A. Harding
  2021-08-09 13:22 ` Antoine Riard
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 31+ messages in thread
From: Jeremy @ 2021-08-08 18:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: lightning-dev, Bitcoin development mailing list

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1221 bytes --]

We should remove the dust limit from Bitcoin. Five reasons:

1) it's not our business what outputs people want to create
2) dust outputs can be used in various authentication/delegation smart
contracts
3) dust sized htlcs in lightning (
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/46730/can-you-send-amounts-that-would-typically-be-considered-dust-through-the-light)
force channels to operate in a semi-trusted mode which has implications
(AFAIU) for the regulatory classification of channels in various
jurisdictions; agnostic treatment of fund transfers would simplify this
(like getting a 0.01 cent dividend check in the mail)
4) thinly divisible colored coin protocols might make use of sats as value
markers for transactions.
5) should we ever do confidential transactions we can't prevent it without
compromising privacy / allowed transfers

The main reasons I'm aware of not allow dust creation is that:

1) dust is spam
2) dust fingerprinting attacks

1 is (IMO) not valid given the 5 reasons above, and 2 is preventable by
well behaved wallets to not redeem outputs that cost more in fees than they
are worth.

cheers,

jeremy

--
@JeremyRubin <https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>
<https://twitter.com/JeremyRubin>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3569 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 31+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-10-08 22:47 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 31+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-08-18 19:06 [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit shymaa arafat
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-08-08 18:52 [bitcoin-dev] " Jeremy
2021-08-08 21:51 ` [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] " David A. Harding
2021-08-08 22:46   ` Jeremy
2021-08-08 23:07   ` Jeremy
2021-09-30 22:07   ` Pieter Wuille
2021-10-01 13:40     ` Erik Aronesty
2021-10-07  4:52       ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-10-07  8:17         ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-10-07  8:34           ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-10-07 10:35             ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH
2021-10-07  9:13         ` shymaa arafat
2021-10-07 10:01           ` ZmnSCPxj
     [not found]             ` <CAM98U8kKud-7QoJKYd5o245o8vGeUD7YD2OnXF_QeKaO33dSTw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]               ` <MCYvJzqskIC56X-ylVCNgdaVk6SNnpCE6GgssXxK-znwwK4MoA41a2A-yNuCG8s99ll3h__YjCjBlP99A27Clbip-aYbF2ZwLpZ0SJT0j2U=@protonmail.com>
2021-10-08  7:44                 ` shymaa arafat
2021-10-08 10:38                   ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-10-08 22:47     ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-08-09 13:22 ` Antoine Riard
2021-08-10  0:30   ` Billy Tetrud
2021-08-10  5:04     ` Jeremy
2021-08-10  5:44       ` Billy Tetrud
2021-08-10 11:37         ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-08-10 18:39           ` Charlie Lee
2021-08-10  6:14   ` David A. Harding
2021-08-10 22:37     ` Antoine Riard
2021-08-11  0:46       ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-08-12 22:03       ` Anthony Towns
2021-08-20  4:51         ` Jeremy
2021-08-20  5:45           ` shymaa arafat
2021-08-21  3:10           ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-08-26 21:21             ` Billy Tetrud
2021-08-27  9:07               ` shymaa arafat
2021-08-30  3:31                 ` LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox