Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit

From: shymaa arafat <shymaa.arafat@gmail•com>
To: Jeremy <jlrubin@mit•edu>,
	 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Cc: lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Removing the Dust Limit
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2021 07:45:31 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAM98U8nmzHOGNS63sw9C_U-capnaOBuMLYzOHaX7YMuk91JO4Q@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAD5xwhiEDa2KjF265iDZ1ism4AFzh3S3D4cJSESVVKNwv9L7zA@mail.gmail.com>

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On Fri, Aug 20, 2021, 06:52 Jeremy via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> one interesting point that came up at the bitdevs in austin today that
> favors remove that i believe is new to this discussion (it was new to me):
>
> the argument can be reduced to:
>
> - dust limit is a per-node relay policy.
> - it is rational for miners to mine dust outputs given their cost of
> maintenance (storing the output potentially forever) is lower than their
> immediate reward in fees.
>
-Here, u  r assuming miners not running full nodes, or even stateless nodes
as in Utreexo
-otherwise they suffer from storing dust UTXOS/their effect on proof
length, right?

- if txn relaying nodes censor something that a miner would mine, users
> will seek a private/direct relay to the miner and vice versa.
> - if direct relay to miner becomes popular, it is both bad for privacy and
> decentralization.
> - therefore the dust limit, should there be demand to create dust at
> prevailing mempool feerates, causes an incentive to increase network
> centralization (immediately)
>
> the tradeoff is if a short term immediate incentive to promote network
> centralization is better or worse than a long term node operator overhead.
>
>
> ///////////////////
>
> my take is that:
>
> 1) having a dust limit is worse since we'd rather not have an incentive to
> produce or roll out centralizing software, whereas not having a dust limit
> creates an mild incentive for node operators to improve utreexo
> decentralizing software.
>
Why not having dust limit improves Utreexo, I think (and tried to suggest
many times) separate storing of dust&other non spendable UTXOS (and their
hashes) so that they do not affect other UTXOS proofs ( and not brought
into main memory unless called as a TXO)

2) it's hard to quantify the magnitude of the incentives, which does matter.
>
I honestly don't get the long term perspective of miners Incentivised to
storing small dust UTXOS instead of having their values added to the fee.

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