* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
@ 2012-01-17 19:03 Peter Vessenes
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Peter Vessenes @ 2012-01-17 19:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
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It seems to me that the internet as a whole has got this one covered. I say
this as someone who thinks that BitCoin needs to choose its battles and
craft its reputation extremely carefully; this isn't the most important
fight for BitCoin, nor the most deadly.
I do think SOPA and PIPA could impact bitcoin, what if, for instance,
copyrighted material made its way into the blockchain?
Already the DMCA would make it hard for someone publishing blocks online to
do anything but cease under a DMCA request. SOPA, at least, would go
farther and allow the US to cut all access to 'offending' sites elsewhere
in the world.
At any rate, I don't think these bills are 'aimed at' BitCoin, and the
companies with the most stake are taking the threat quite seriously.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 16:16 ` James Burkle
@ 2012-01-17 16:30 ` solar
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: solar @ 2012-01-17 16:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: James Burkle; +Cc: bitcoin-development
Dear bitcoin-development,
One of the original reasons for the creation of this mailing list was because the bitcoin.org forum was filled with this type of noise and this list was to provide a medium for discussion of development topics. This entire SOPA thing is off topic for this list. Might as well argue about abortion, because you can pay an abortion doctor with bitcoins.. maybe.
Many of us subscribe because we're interested in the technical discussions.. not internet trolling. Several people have already expressed that they don't care about this, so please discuss it somewhere more appropriate for this topic, like the bitcointalk forums.
Thanks,
Laszlo
On Jan 17, 2012, at 4:16 PM, James Burkle wrote:
> I don't think this is the right mailing list for discussion of this
> Blackout topic. I know this is definitely not the right mailing list
> for proselytizing.
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:42:51 AM Jorge Timón wrote:
>>> It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a
>>> political organization for being against censorship.
>>> This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the
>>> basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy.
>>
>> Censorship is, in principle, good. Free speech and democracy are, in princple,
>> evil. Idolizing Liberty is also evil. Your backward morals are worse than a
>> political issue.
>>
>> How about taking a few minutes to read this article by Bishop Sanborn? ;)
>> http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=13&catname=7
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr
@ 2012-01-17 16:16 ` James Burkle
2012-01-17 16:30 ` solar
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: James Burkle @ 2012-01-17 16:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Luke-Jr; +Cc: bitcoin-development
I don't think this is the right mailing list for discussion of this
Blackout topic. I know this is definitely not the right mailing list
for proselytizing.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:42:51 AM Jorge Timón wrote:
>> It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a
>> political organization for being against censorship.
>> This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the
>> basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy.
>
> Censorship is, in principle, good. Free speech and democracy are, in princple,
> evil. Idolizing Liberty is also evil. Your backward morals are worse than a
> political issue.
>
> How about taking a few minutes to read this article by Bishop Sanborn? ;)
> http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=13&catname=7
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow!
> The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers
> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3,
> Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón
2012-01-17 9:04 ` Wladimir
@ 2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr
2012-01-17 16:16 ` James Burkle
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-17 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
On Tuesday, January 17, 2012 2:42:51 AM Jorge Timón wrote:
> It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a
> political organization for being against censorship.
> This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the
> basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy.
Censorship is, in principle, good. Free speech and democracy are, in princple,
evil. Idolizing Liberty is also evil. Your backward morals are worse than a
political issue.
How about taking a few minutes to read this article by Bishop Sanborn? ;)
http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=13&catname=7
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell
2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón
@ 2012-01-17 9:25 ` Stefan Thomas
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Thomas @ 2012-01-17 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
I'm firmly against a *blackout* - it would harm users' trust in Bitcoin
since people looking to download the client or to get information about
Bitcoin may end up in the wrong place. I constantly have to delete
YouTube spam advertising this or that "miracle GPU miner" or "secure
Bitcoin client", which of course are all just the same trojan.
As for making a statement or putting up a banner - that's ok with me.
On 1/17/2012 7:15 AM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Kyle Henderson<k@old•school.nz> wrote:
>> For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America
>> region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you
>> point out precisely where it does so?
> In addition to the concerns about internet freedom and domain name
> system filtering which are against the interests of bitcoin users and
> the bitcoin system generally, SOPA contains new requirements for
> payment networks which may adversely impact Bitcoin services
> businesses and limit their ability to do business in the US and other
> places where similar legislation is adopted. There are many millions
> of potential Bitcoin users in the US, so US law matters for our
> ecosystem even though far from all Bitcoin users are in the US
> themselves.
>
> (21) PAYMENT NETWORK PROVIDER-
> (A) IN GENERAL- The term `payment network provider' means
> an entity that directly or indirectly provides the proprietary
> services, infrastructure, and software to effect or facilitate a
> debit, credit, or other payment transaction.
> [...]
> (i) PREVENTING AFFILIATION- A payment network provider
> shall take technically feasible and reasonable measures, as
> expeditiously as possible, but in any case within 5 days after being
> served with a copy of the order, or within such time as the court may
> order, designed to prevent, prohibit, or suspend its service from
> completing payment transactions involving customers located within the
> United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and
> the payment account--
> (I) which is used by the foreign infringing site,
> or portion thereof, that is subject to the order; and
> (II) through which the payment network provider
> would complete such payment transactions.
>
> If you really want to go for the more extreme interpretation, it's not
> hard to conclude that the Bitcoin system itself is a "payment network"
> by the definition under the act, and if so in theory the AG's office
> could— without due process— order miners and mining pools located in
> the US to, for example, not process transactions containing the well
> known addresses of targeted infringing sites (e.g. The Wikileaks
> donation address). Though I personally think this is far out.
>
> I also think that other people will covered the SOPA/PIPA awareness
> (e.g. Wikipedia is shutting down for 24 hours) more than we could
> possibly do with our own resources.
>
> But this attitude of it being someone elses problem? I think thats
> nonsense. We live in _one world_, one world which is getting smaller
> every day. The value of a network—or of a economy— comes from the
> number of potential connections it can make. One reason Bitcoin is
> good is because it deconstructs some of the old barriers and anything
> that risks imposing new ones is a threat to us all.
>
> So, don't participate because bitcoin.org's help would be so small as
> to be pointless— sure. But because it doesn't matter? hardly.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow!
> The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers
> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3,
> Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki
2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner
@ 2012-01-17 9:19 ` Vladimir Marchenko
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Vladimir Marchenko @ 2012-01-17 9:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Amir Taaki; +Cc: bitcoin-development
On 17 January 2012 00:30, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote:
> ...
> Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action
> ...
I would like to voice my support to Amir here. It is a solidarity
gesture and from my point of view it would be great if bitcoin related
websites join the Blackout. In my view it is almost like Internet's
general strike, which is being enacted for a very good reason. To some
degree, ignoring it and continuing business as usual is almost
equivalent to being a strikebreaker.
For whatever it worth, all websites where I have some degree of
control will particpate in the blackout. Even where it means loss of
revenue for one day (actually it is likely that ad revenues tomorrow
would be easily twice the usual amount due to so many publishers
shutting down their websites.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón
@ 2012-01-17 9:04 ` Wladimir
2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Wladimir @ 2012-01-17 9:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jorge Timón; +Cc: bitcoin-development
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This is not just "a political issue". The internet as we know it is at
stake, and bitcoin depends directly on a working, single, globally
connected internet (at least for now, until mesh networking goes
anywhere...).
*Everyone* using bitcoin has the interest in keeping the internet working
and un-balkanized. That's not a political opinion, it's a fact.
The laws could also criminalize both the users and developers, if they
regard bitcoin as a "payment network". And countries aren't too fussy about
extradition to the US (see the case of Richard O'Dwyer).
Though I agree that SOPA and PIPA are just manifestations of a brand of
censorship that is spreading all over the world. Stopping these laws won't
solve the underlying issue either. Other countries will keep pushing for
them, and we can't blank out the page for every country.
However, that does not make the issue "political and thus meaningless".
Also: "being too small to matter" is never a good argument to not do
something. It is fear paralysis.
Wladimir
2012/1/17 Jorge Timón <timon.elviejo@gmail•com>
> It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a
> political organization for being against censorship.
> This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the
> basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy.
> And as Gregory shows it clearly affects bitcoin directly.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow!
> The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers
> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3,
> Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell
@ 2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón
2012-01-17 9:04 ` Wladimir
2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr
2012-01-17 9:25 ` Stefan Thomas
1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jorge Timón @ 2012-01-17 7:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
Cc: bitcoin-development
It may be a political issue, but I don't think wikipedia becomes a
political organization for being against censorship.
This is not about left or right. Is about free speech, one of the
basic principles not only of freedom but also of democracy.
And as Gregory shows it clearly affects bitcoin directly.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson
@ 2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell
2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón
2012-01-17 9:25 ` Stefan Thomas
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2012-01-17 6:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Kyle Henderson; +Cc: bitcoin-development
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:37 PM, Kyle Henderson <k@old•school.nz> wrote:
> For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America
> region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you
> point out precisely where it does so?
In addition to the concerns about internet freedom and domain name
system filtering which are against the interests of bitcoin users and
the bitcoin system generally, SOPA contains new requirements for
payment networks which may adversely impact Bitcoin services
businesses and limit their ability to do business in the US and other
places where similar legislation is adopted. There are many millions
of potential Bitcoin users in the US, so US law matters for our
ecosystem even though far from all Bitcoin users are in the US
themselves.
(21) PAYMENT NETWORK PROVIDER-
(A) IN GENERAL- The term `payment network provider' means
an entity that directly or indirectly provides the proprietary
services, infrastructure, and software to effect or facilitate a
debit, credit, or other payment transaction.
[...]
(i) PREVENTING AFFILIATION- A payment network provider
shall take technically feasible and reasonable measures, as
expeditiously as possible, but in any case within 5 days after being
served with a copy of the order, or within such time as the court may
order, designed to prevent, prohibit, or suspend its service from
completing payment transactions involving customers located within the
United States or subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and
the payment account--
(I) which is used by the foreign infringing site,
or portion thereof, that is subject to the order; and
(II) through which the payment network provider
would complete such payment transactions.
If you really want to go for the more extreme interpretation, it's not
hard to conclude that the Bitcoin system itself is a "payment network"
by the definition under the act, and if so in theory the AG's office
could— without due process— order miners and mining pools located in
the US to, for example, not process transactions containing the well
known addresses of targeted infringing sites (e.g. The Wikileaks
donation address). Though I personally think this is far out.
I also think that other people will covered the SOPA/PIPA awareness
(e.g. Wikipedia is shutting down for 24 hours) more than we could
possibly do with our own resources.
But this attitude of it being someone elses problem? I think thats
nonsense. We live in _one world_, one world which is getting smaller
every day. The value of a network—or of a economy— comes from the
number of potential connections it can make. One reason Bitcoin is
good is because it deconstructs some of the old barriers and anything
that risks imposing new ones is a threat to us all.
So, don't participate because bitcoin.org's help would be so small as
to be pointless— sure. But because it doesn't matter? hardly.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik
2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr
2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki
@ 2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson
2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Kyle Henderson @ 2012-01-17 2:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
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On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:37 AM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com> wrote:
>
> There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would
> rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate
> this in the long run.
>
>
Agreed :)
For those that believe one particularly noisy country in the North America
region with a policy called SOPA or PIPA directly affects Bitcoin - can you
point out precisely where it does so?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush
@ 2012-01-17 2:35 ` Cameron Garnham
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Cameron Garnham @ 2012-01-17 2:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5330 bytes --]
I think that bitcoin.org should remain apolitical. However maybe it
would be good if the blackout to take effect on bitcointalk.org if
theymos and Sirius believes it is appropriate.
Bitcoin.org should provide bitcoin.
On 17/01/2012 11:59 AM, slush wrote:
> > I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands.
>
> I agree on this. Please don't turn Bitcoin project/homepage into some
> political agitation. Not everybody care about political attitude of
> main project developers.
>
> slush
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail•com
> <mailto:etotheipi@gmail•com>> wrote:
>
> You guys are representing both extremes of the issue. In response
> to Jeff and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is /just any other
> poltical issue/. It strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is
> about. Barring Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any
> legislation could be more relevant to Bitcoin and the community
> around it.
>
> On the other hand, Bitcoin is still a non-entity, and shouldn't
> get in the business of making statements. A central voice for
> Bitcoin gives the impression that it is actually centralized, and
> one that has opinions. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if some,
> heavily-invested Bitcoin users were of the opinion that
> SOPA/PIPA/whatever could be a huge profit for themselves: once
> SOPA kicks in and businesses around the world start getting cut
> off for legit or illegitimate purposes, a lot of them could
> potentially switch to Bitcoin to keep their business going. That
> could be a huge boon for Bitcoin. You may not agree it's worth
> the tradeoff, but people are selfish and may not actually
> understand or even care about SOPA legislation itself.
>
> I think it's /not inappropriate/ for something to be mentioned on
> the website about Bitcoin's philosophy being threatened by SOPA,
> but I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political
> stands. Users could be reminded that SOPA affects yet another
> thing they care about, but it might be better to avoid it
> altogether. If any response is made, it should be a very light one.
>
> -Alan
>
>
>
> On 01/16/2012 07:30 PM, Amir Taaki wrote:
>> Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly.
>>
>> Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action
>>
>> The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia.
>>
>> It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Jeff Garzik<jgarzik@exmulti•com> <mailto:jgarzik@exmulti•com>
>> To: Amir Taaki<zgenjix@yahoo•com> <mailto:zgenjix@yahoo•com>
>> Cc:"bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net" <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development]bitcoin.org <http://bitcoin.org> SOPA/PIPA blackout
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki<zgenjix@yahoo•com> <mailto:zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote:
>>> How is this not the most important world issue right now?
>>>
>>> EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage.
>>>
>>> Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy.
>> There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would
>> rather thatbitcoin.org <http://bitcoin.org> stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate
>> this in the long run.
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow!
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> developers
> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3,
> MVC3,
> Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d
> _______________________________________________
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> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers
> is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3,
> Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner
2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush
@ 2012-01-17 2:25 ` Luke-Jr
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-17 2:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
On Monday, January 16, 2012 7:46:39 PM Alan Reiner wrote:
> In response to Jeff and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is /just any other
> poltical issue/. It strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is about.
Sorry, Bitcoin is not about the same thing to everyone. For me, Bitcoin is
about one thing: providing a monetary system for the Tonal number system.
Otherwise, it would be merely an interesting project I have no real concern
with. To assume everyone has the same interests is a sure-fire way to prevent
widescale adoption. If you want Bitcoin to succeed, don't try to impose a
single purpose/"about" on everyone using it (which a "blackout" would do).
> Barring Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any legislation
> could be more relevant to Bitcoin and the community around it.
Bitcoin is an innovative new currency. How is a bill on internet censorship
(which is badly needed, even if not in the form of SOPA/PIPA) directly
relevant? I don't think it is.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner
@ 2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush
2012-01-17 2:35 ` Cameron Garnham
2012-01-17 2:25 ` Luke-Jr
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: slush @ 2012-01-17 0:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Alan Reiner; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4027 bytes --]
> I agree Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands.
I agree on this. Please don't turn Bitcoin project/homepage into some
political agitation. Not everybody care about political attitude of main
project developers.
slush
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail•com> wrote:
> **
> You guys are representing both extremes of the issue. In response to Jeff
> and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is *just any other poltical issue*. It
> strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is about. Barring
> Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any legislation could be more
> relevant to Bitcoin and the community around it.
>
> On the other hand, Bitcoin is still a non-entity, and shouldn't get in the
> business of making statements. A central voice for Bitcoin gives the
> impression that it is actually centralized, and one that has opinions.
> Plus I wouldn't be surprised if some, heavily-invested Bitcoin users were
> of the opinion that SOPA/PIPA/whatever could be a huge profit for
> themselves: once SOPA kicks in and businesses around the world start
> getting cut off for legit or illegitimate purposes, a lot of them could
> potentially switch to Bitcoin to keep their business going. That could be
> a huge boon for Bitcoin. You may not agree it's worth the tradeoff, but
> people are selfish and may not actually understand or even care about SOPA
> legislation itself.
>
> I think it's *not inappropriate* for something to be mentioned on the
> website about Bitcoin's philosophy being threatened by SOPA, but I agree
> Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands. Users could be
> reminded that SOPA affects yet another thing they care about, but it might
> be better to avoid it altogether. If any response is made, it should be a
> very light one.
>
> -Alan
>
>
>
> On 01/16/2012 07:30 PM, Amir Taaki wrote:
>
> Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly.
>
> Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action
>
> The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia.
>
> It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com> <jgarzik@exmulti•com>
> To: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> <zgenjix@yahoo•com>
> Cc: "bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net" <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net> <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
>
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> <zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote:
>
> How is this not the most important world issue right now?
>
> EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage.
>
> Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy.
>
> There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would
> rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate
> this in the long run.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki
@ 2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner
2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush
2012-01-17 2:25 ` Luke-Jr
2012-01-17 9:19 ` Vladimir Marchenko
1 sibling, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Alan Reiner @ 2012-01-17 0:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2921 bytes --]
You guys are representing both extremes of the issue. In response to
Jeff and Luke-Jr, I don't see how this is /just any other poltical
issue/. It strikes at the heart of everything Bitcoin is about.
Barring Bitcoin-specific legislation, I don't see how any legislation
could be more relevant to Bitcoin and the community around it.
On the other hand, Bitcoin is still a non-entity, and shouldn't get in
the business of making statements. A central voice for Bitcoin gives
the impression that it is actually centralized, and one that has
opinions. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if some, heavily-invested
Bitcoin users were of the opinion that SOPA/PIPA/whatever could be a
huge profit for themselves: once SOPA kicks in and businesses around
the world start getting cut off for legit or illegitimate purposes, a
lot of them could potentially switch to Bitcoin to keep their business
going. That could be a huge boon for Bitcoin. You may not agree it's
worth the tradeoff, but people are selfish and may not actually
understand or even care about SOPA legislation itself.
I think it's /not inappropriate/ for something to be mentioned on the
website about Bitcoin's philosophy being threatened by SOPA, but I agree
Bitcoin should avoid making any bold political stands. Users could be
reminded that SOPA affects yet another thing they care about, but it
might be better to avoid it altogether. If any response is made, it
should be a very light one.
-Alan
On 01/16/2012 07:30 PM, Amir Taaki wrote:
> Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly.
>
> Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action
>
> The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia.
>
> It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jeff Garzik<jgarzik@exmulti•com>
> To: Amir Taaki<zgenjix@yahoo•com>
> Cc: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net"<bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
>
> On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki<zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote:
>> How is this not the most important world issue right now?
>>
>> EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage.
>>
>> Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy.
>
> There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would
> rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate
> this in the long run.
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik
2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr
@ 2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki
2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner
2012-01-17 9:19 ` Vladimir Marchenko
2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson
2 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Amir Taaki @ 2012-01-17 0:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
Bunk argument. This is an issue that affects bitcoin directly.
Wikipedia has far more need to remain neutral and apolitical than bitcoin ever does- you've read Satoshi's politically charged whitepaper or seen the genesis block quote.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SOPA_initiative/Action
The Wikipedia community decided on a full and global blackout. Bitcoin should do the same in unison with the rest of the web- sites like Reddit, 4chan and Wikipedia.
It's funny / almost comical how you consign this to being just another issue or case of moral alarm. Sad.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com>
To: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com>
Cc: "bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net" <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote:
> How is this not the most important world issue right now?
>
> EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage.
>
> Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy.
There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would
rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate
this in the long run.
--
Jeff Garzik
exMULTI, Inc.
jgarzik@exmulti•com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-16 8:12 ` Gregory Maxwell
@ 2012-01-16 8:29 ` Wladimir
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Wladimir @ 2012-01-16 8:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gregory Maxwell; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 698 bytes --]
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail•com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail•com> wrote:
> > Internet censorship *is* a threat to bitcoin, if we don't stand up for
> our
> > rights now we deserve anything that is coming. There will be no "long
> run".
>
> Very few people actually care if they can load that particular URL ...
> if you were talking about the forums it might matter more. It also
> might make sense to run some informative popup, except people are
> going to be seeing them all over the internet on higher traffic sites.
>
Agreed, a notice would be enough. No need to make the entire site
inaccessible either.
Wladimir
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-16 7:35 ` Wladimir
@ 2012-01-16 8:12 ` Gregory Maxwell
2012-01-16 8:29 ` Wladimir
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2012-01-16 8:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Wladimir; +Cc: bitcoin-development
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Wladimir <laanwj@gmail•com> wrote:
> Internet censorship *is* a threat to bitcoin, if we don't stand up for our
> rights now we deserve anything that is coming. There will be no "long run".
Very few people actually care if they can load that particular URL ...
if you were talking about the forums it might matter more. It also
might make sense to run some informative popup, except people are
going to be seeing them all over the internet on higher traffic sites.
E.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_SOPA_Blackout_Design_%28derivative_A%29.png
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr
@ 2012-01-16 7:35 ` Wladimir
2012-01-16 8:12 ` Gregory Maxwell
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Wladimir @ 2012-01-16 7:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Luke-Jr; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1036 bytes --]
Internet censorship *is* a threat to bitcoin, if we don't stand up for our
rights now we deserve anything that is coming. There will be no "long run".
On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 2:19 AM, Luke-Jr <luke@dashjr•org> wrote:
> On Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:37:05 PM Jeff Garzik wrote:
> > There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would
> > rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate
> > this in the long run.
>
> I agree (with the conclusion). There are much more important and urgent
> problems than SOPA/PIPA that we'd need to constantly 'blackout' if we did
> it
> over every single problem.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> RSA(R) Conference 2012
> Mar 27 - Feb 2
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> http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev2
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr
2012-01-16 7:35 ` Wladimir
2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki
2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson
2 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Luke-Jr @ 2012-01-16 1:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
On Sunday, January 15, 2012 5:37:05 PM Jeff Garzik wrote:
> There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would
> rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate
> this in the long run.
I agree (with the conclusion). There are much more important and urgent
problems than SOPA/PIPA that we'd need to constantly 'blackout' if we did it
over every single problem.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
2012-01-15 22:09 Amir Taaki
@ 2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik
2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2012-01-15 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Amir Taaki; +Cc: bitcoin-development
On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 5:09 PM, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo•com> wrote:
> How is this not the most important world issue right now?
>
> EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage.
>
> Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy.
There are always issues that raise ire and moral outrage. I would
rather that bitcoin.org stay apolitical -- our users will appreciate
this in the long run.
--
Jeff Garzik
exMULTI, Inc.
jgarzik@exmulti•com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout
@ 2012-01-15 22:09 Amir Taaki
2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Amir Taaki @ 2012-01-15 22:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
How is this not the most important world issue right now?
EVERYTHING is under threat. Go nuclear to show our nerd-rage.
Everybody blank your personal sites too. Americans, take to the streets. World, go scream at the US embassy.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2012-01-17 19:32 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 21+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2012-01-17 19:03 [Bitcoin-development] bitcoin.org SOPA/PIPA blackout Peter Vessenes
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2012-01-15 22:09 Amir Taaki
2012-01-15 22:37 ` Jeff Garzik
2012-01-16 1:19 ` Luke-Jr
2012-01-16 7:35 ` Wladimir
2012-01-16 8:12 ` Gregory Maxwell
2012-01-16 8:29 ` Wladimir
2012-01-17 0:30 ` Amir Taaki
2012-01-17 0:46 ` Alan Reiner
2012-01-17 0:59 ` slush
2012-01-17 2:35 ` Cameron Garnham
2012-01-17 2:25 ` Luke-Jr
2012-01-17 9:19 ` Vladimir Marchenko
2012-01-17 2:37 ` Kyle Henderson
2012-01-17 6:15 ` Gregory Maxwell
2012-01-17 7:42 ` Jorge Timón
2012-01-17 9:04 ` Wladimir
2012-01-17 16:03 ` Luke-Jr
2012-01-17 16:16 ` James Burkle
2012-01-17 16:30 ` solar
2012-01-17 9:25 ` Stefan Thomas
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