* [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts
@ 2012-10-02 16:38 Mike Hearn
2012-10-02 17:43 ` Gavin Andresen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2012-10-02 16:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
I've been thinking about the requirements for a payment protocol
lately. It seems we have consensus that we need one of these. Pieter
has a gist on the topic here: https://gist.github.com/1237788
IMHO we'll want to move away from "send X BTC to address Y" and more
towards "upload to me transactions that send X BTC to outputs
A,B....F,G". In this context by output I mean the obvious
interpretation of script+value.
The reasons are privacy and security. Privacy: you don't want people
to find out if you have an unexpectedly large balance (from the block
chain). Example worst case scenarios
- in a hypothetical Bitcoin-using country, as most people receive
income exactly once a month from their employer, you could potentially
find out other peoples salaries. Drama ensues.
- business partners could find out their counterparty has an
unexpectedly good financial position, messing up negotiations
Security:
- some of the outputs could be in a hot wallet, others in cold
wallets, helping you maintain correct balances between them in real
time
- the outputs can be multi-sig scripts
Wallets would then craft a series of transactions to try and somewhat
balance the size of inputs vs outputs. Because they are separate
transactions and all the keys are fresh, there's no way to link them
together into a single payment, especially not if they're broadcast in
random order with some jitter.
The upside of this is better privacy. The downside is obviously more
transactions and therefore more overhead. In theory the sum of tx
outputs would end up converging to a reasonable "coin size" for the
recipients, eg, businesses might be happy to receive a lot of money in
a single output, individuals less, children or very poor people maybe
much less.
Let's call payment requests invoices. Here is a brainstorm on other
features that may be desirable. I'm not suggesting they're all in v1,
just that we think about them a bit to ensure we don't paint ourselves
into a corner.
- Optional list of {signature, certificate} pairs. SSL certs can be
embedded into the payment request file itself so they can be checked
instantly for wallets that want to show a verified identity, but you
can also provide other certificates issued outside the regular SSL CA
system. For example maybe MtGox issues you a "trusted vendor"
certificate. Maybe the better business bureau issues you a cert, etc.
- Optional expiry time (from sipas gist) so outputs that were never
sent to can be recycled
- Upload target (URI), where to send the created transactions
- Optional message and branding image/icon that a wallet can display
to make the transaction history a bit prettier
- Opaque token that the wallet is supposed to copy into the payment.
The merchant can use to link invoice with payment. It's technically
redundant, the output set would identify the invoice too, as could a
token in the upload target URL, but it may be simpler for some
merchant implementations
- Ability to specify payment amount[s] in terms of other currencies.
If the amount is specified statically it can just be recorded in the
wallet for informational purposes. If there's a URL provided also, it
is an endpoint where quotes can be obtained. This allows merchants to
make long-lived invoices which are protected against FX volatility.
Downside: complicates wallets. Upsides: invoices can be kept around
for longer.
- Web/human-usable URL for the order so users can, eg, send messages
to the merchant specific to an order, post a review of the merchant,
etc
- Support for setting up 2-of-3 dispute mediation. Invoices should be
able to name a list of acceptable mediators and the wallet software
can intersect this with a list of mediators acceptable to the user, to
find one that works best. The whole mechanism by which merchants and
users agree on mediators isn't designed yet but we can at least think
about it now. It may be there's a simple design everyone agrees on
already.
- Support for requesting recurring payments. Eg, I should be able to
provide N sets of M outputs, one set for each payment with a payment
schedule. Wallets can then ensure they run at the appropriate times to
keep up the subscription.
- Suggested tip/service charge. Wallet would give a simple UI to
adjust this up/down by X percentage points
- Request to sign inputs with SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY, allowing the
payment to be a pledge for an assurance contract
- Ability to specify minimum confirmation level of coins that will be
spent. Some merchants may be OK with you immediately re-spending
unconfirmed coins. Other merchants will care more and might want you
to take on the burden of getting your transactions into the chain.
On the payment upload side:
- An optional signature under a stable user key that lets users
optionally link their payments across merchants. In this way a user
can build cross-market reputation which may help them in future, by
relaxing confirmation requirements or reducing the chance of being
asked to enter dispute mediation. Needs more thought.
- Optionally, an invoice for a refund if the merchant chooses to
refund the money in the absence of dispute mediation.
- A list of Bitcoin transactions that make payments to the outputs
requested in the invoice
- The opaque token provided in the invoice
Re: format. I would (surprise) strongly suggest protocol buffers over
JSON. I cannot think of any justification for using JSON (for
anything) but especially not for data structures that mostly contain
binary data like hashes or keys. Protobufs are easier to work with in
code, have a more efficient encoding, can be printed/parsed from ASCII
if you need to (eg for debugging purposes) and have fewer sharp edges
than JSON does.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts
2012-10-02 16:38 [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts Mike Hearn
@ 2012-10-02 17:43 ` Gavin Andresen
2012-10-02 17:52 ` Peter Vessenes
2012-10-02 22:44 ` Mike Hearn
0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Gavin Andresen @ 2012-10-02 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mike Hearn; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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I agree we need a payment protocol, but instead of thinking of all of the
things we might possibly want I would like to solve a few boring problems
that we have right now.
Absolutely critical:
+ Bitcoin addresses by themselves are insecure against man-in-the-middle
attacks. We need a payment protocol so if you get a donation link for
"Bitcoin Foundation" in an email message and click on it you can be
reasonably certain that your coins will actually go to the Foundation and
not some hacker at your ISP that modified the email message.
+ After sending payment I should have a receipt that proves I followed the
payee's instructions, so if the payee says they never received the funds I
can prove that it wasn't my fault.
+ Protocol for gathering signatures from multiple devices
(extension/variation of the basic payment protocol, I think).
Not absolutely necessary, but I think v1 should have it anyway:
+ Where-to-send-refund information included with payments, so
overpayments/refunds can be handled efficiently and displayed intelligently
in the customer's wallet.
Everything else I think can wait.
--
--
Gavin Andresen
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts
2012-10-02 17:43 ` Gavin Andresen
@ 2012-10-02 17:52 ` Peter Vessenes
2012-10-02 18:07 ` Jeff Garzik
2012-10-02 22:44 ` Mike Hearn
1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Peter Vessenes @ 2012-10-02 17:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin Andresen; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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There are tons of scenarios, some discussed here on this list previously,
which would benefit from out of band messages and notes.
This is small, but an interesting tidbit from BTC Foundation payments;
roughly 3-5% of our initial members double-spent. WOW, that's terrible.
I presume that's because they use web wallets without double-click
prevention. But, seriously! A tiny UI issue that's a big deal in an
irrevocable payment system.
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail•com>wrote:
> I agree we need a payment protocol, but instead of thinking of all of the
> things we might possibly want I would like to solve a few boring problems
> that we have right now.
>
> Absolutely critical:
>
> + Bitcoin addresses by themselves are insecure against man-in-the-middle
> attacks. We need a payment protocol so if you get a donation link for
> "Bitcoin Foundation" in an email message and click on it you can be
> reasonably certain that your coins will actually go to the Foundation and
> not some hacker at your ISP that modified the email message.
>
>
I'm trying but can't think of a lightweight solution to this off the top of
my head. Not that that proves much.
> + After sending payment I should have a receipt that proves I followed the
> payee's instructions, so if the payee says they never received the funds I
> can prove that it wasn't my fault.
>
>
+ Protocol for gathering signatures from multiple devices
> (extension/variation of the basic payment protocol, I think).
>
> With the foundation trying to operate without bank accounts, I think it
comes into clarity for me just how innovative and incredibly awesome this
would be for financial controls for companies. Imagine the bookkeeper
inputting payments, and the owner (or 2 of 3 owners) approving them. I can
even imagine large member groups having 2/3 or majority spend rules.
When we talk about stuff like this, I come back around to thinking there
should be many different GUIs -- this use case is more business-y, it's
stuff like this that I always think about the bitcoin testing project
helping provide -- a standard backend that a bookkeeping GUI could go on
top of..
> Not absolutely necessary, but I think v1 should have it anyway:
>
> + Where-to-send-refund information included with payments, so
> overpayments/refunds can be handled efficiently and displayed intelligently
> in the customer's wallet.
>
>
> Everything else I think can wait.
>
> --
> --
> Gavin Andresen
>
>
>
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--
------------------------------
[image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES
CEO
*peter@coinlab•com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes
811 FIRST AVENUE / SUITE 480 / SEATTLE, WA 98104
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts
2012-10-02 17:52 ` Peter Vessenes
@ 2012-10-02 18:07 ` Jeff Garzik
2012-10-02 22:35 ` Peter Vessenes
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2012-10-02 18:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Vessenes; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab•com> wrote:
> This is small, but an interesting tidbit from BTC Foundation payments;
> roughly 3-5% of our initial members double-spent. WOW, that's terrible.
To be specific, do you mean
a) paid twice
or
b) sent BF coins, then sent the same coins elsewhere
?
Double-spend is a specific technical term....
--
Jeff Garzik
exMULTI, Inc.
jgarzik@exmulti•com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts
2012-10-02 18:07 ` Jeff Garzik
@ 2012-10-02 22:35 ` Peter Vessenes
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Peter Vessenes @ 2012-10-02 22:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 819 bytes --]
I meant sent twice, a.
No double-spends that I'm aware of. Sorry for the loose verbiage!
Peter
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@exmulti•com> wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab•com> wrote:
> > This is small, but an interesting tidbit from BTC Foundation payments;
> > roughly 3-5% of our initial members double-spent. WOW, that's terrible.
>
> To be specific, do you mean
>
> a) paid twice
> or
> b) sent BF coins, then sent the same coins elsewhere
> ?
>
> Double-spend is a specific technical term....
>
> --
> Jeff Garzik
> exMULTI, Inc.
> jgarzik@exmulti•com
>
--
------------------------------
[image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES
CEO
*peter@coinlab•com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes
811 FIRST AVENUE / SUITE 480 / SEATTLE, WA 98104
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts
2012-10-02 17:43 ` Gavin Andresen
2012-10-02 17:52 ` Peter Vessenes
@ 2012-10-02 22:44 ` Mike Hearn
2012-10-02 22:52 ` Gregory Maxwell
1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2012-10-02 22:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gavin Andresen; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
I think it's worth pondering the different things we may want in
future, even if that future is quite far out, just to ensure we have a
robust design that won't box us in later. Brainstorming feature ideas
now doesn't commit anyone to implementing them, but it may help
improve the final v1 design.
> + Bitcoin addresses by themselves are insecure against man-in-the-middle
> attacks.
A simple way to solve this problem is just use the SSL identity of the
server that is taking part in the protocol, but it's not much harder
to embed a signature + cert chain into the invoice itself. And once
you're doing that, allowing several different sigs/cert chains is
pretty easy. It means you keep the design open to cases where SSL may
not be appropriate. Eg, you could create invoices signed by your
web-of-trust identity, or some non-SSL Bitcoin specific verification
system.
None of those things have to actually be implemented, but by
considering them now we can make the protocol more future prooof.
> + After sending payment I should have a receipt that proves I followed the
> payee's instructions, so if the payee says they never received the funds I
> can prove that it wasn't my fault.
A signed invoice + the blockchain transactions does this, BUT with a
major caveat: if you have not set up dispute mediation, there is
nobody to prove faultlessness to.
So I'm not sure this would be very useful. Supporting real dispute
mediation seems more practical, but also more work.
> + Protocol for gathering signatures from multiple devices
> (extension/variation of the basic payment protocol, I think).
This would be nice, I think invoices could be wrapped by another
protocol that handles it. I'm not sure it needs to be a part of the
core payment protocol. There are lots of different ways to implement
this and I'm not sure there's agreement on what it should look like -
somebody needs to build a "proprietary" implementation first.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts
2012-10-02 22:44 ` Mike Hearn
@ 2012-10-02 22:52 ` Gregory Maxwell
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Maxwell @ 2012-10-02 22:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mike Hearn; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:
> A simple way to solve this problem is just use the SSL identity of the
> server that is taking part in the protocol, but it's not much harder
SSL itself (as opposed to using the certs as you suggest) is not
non-reputablable, so it's not enough for the below concerns
> A signed invoice + the blockchain transactions does this, BUT with a
> major caveat: if you have not set up dispute mediation, there is
> nobody to prove faultlessness to.
To their prospective customer base. "I can prove to the public that
you ripped me off" is protective, even if there isn't formal direct
remedy available.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
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2012-10-02 16:38 [Bitcoin-development] Payment protocol thoughts Mike Hearn
2012-10-02 17:43 ` Gavin Andresen
2012-10-02 17:52 ` Peter Vessenes
2012-10-02 18:07 ` Jeff Garzik
2012-10-02 22:35 ` Peter Vessenes
2012-10-02 22:44 ` Mike Hearn
2012-10-02 22:52 ` Gregory Maxwell
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