From: paul snow <snow.paul@gmail•com>
To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org>
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] The relationship between Proof-of-Publication and Anti-Replay Oracles
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:41:08 -0600 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAMU7uitBBm58iNH6QXP4K+PQzn9Uw=JaYvv5vGgvSM-dCFZZig@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20141221152256.GA3927@savin.petertodd.org>
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I could play the game where I say, "You don't understand," and, like you,
not address any of your points.
First, there is no dependence on implementation in my arguments. If a
system can prevent replay by some set of rules, it necessarily must be able
to answer the question if a message is publishable. Non publishing proofs
are thus possible and even required.
The argument that proof of audience isn't part of an anti-replay system is
not one I picked up on, but an publicly auditable anti replay system
necessarily must define its audience. Again, not an issue for an auditable
system.
On Dec 21, 2014 9:23 AM, "Peter Todd" <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 07:49:17AM -0600, paul snow wrote:
> > On Dec 20, 2014 8:49 AM, "Peter Todd" <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> > >
> > > However the converse is not possible: anti-replay cannot be used to
> > implement proof-of-publication. Knowing that no conflicting message
> exists
> > says nothing about who be in posession of that message, or indeed, any
> > message at all. Thus anti-replay is not sufficient to implement other
> uses
> > of proof-of-publication such as decentralized exchange³.
> >
> > How does proof of publication prove who is in possession of that message?
> > Or of any message at all?
>
> With the blockchain you prove the message in in the blockchain; anyone
> in posession of the blockchain will be in posession of the message.
> Secondly determining if you are in posession of the blockchain is
> possible subject to the usual considerations about attacker size,
> whether or not your local clock is up-to-date, etc.
>
> > The data written in an anti-replay system and
> > the data written in a proof of publication system differs in that you
> can't
> > repeat data in an anti-replay system according to some understanding of
> the
> > rules of the meaning of the data (if I am following your description
> > correctly).
>
> I'm not sure you understand what an anti-replay system is; data isn't
> written to them; they're an abstract mathematical model that may be
> actually implemented in a variety of ways.
>
> Now it is true that any conceivable implementation must involve some
> type of storage, but that storage can easily 100% local to the
> anti-replay oracle and need not store the data itself. For instance a
> trusted computer in a vault that maintains an extremely large bloom
> filter of previously used keys would be a perfectly reasonable
> implementation.
>
> > If the data itself defines possession, the "ownership of the message" (it
> > isn't even clear to me what you mean by that phrase) isn't defined by
> > either proof, but by the message itself. And the message itself isn't
> > constrained by either to prohibit proving ownership (what ever you mean
> by
> > that).
>
> Wait, where did I say "ownership of the message"? What you quoted above
> says *posession*, which != ownership.
>
> > Of course, I do assume I can test a message (or a set of messages sharing
> > some feature like a particular input on a transaction) as being
> publishable
> > in an anti-replay system without actually publishing it. That does allow
> > one to prove non-publishing. You can determine if a message exists that
> > would preclude the publishing of a message; the very purpose of an
> > anti-replay proof.
> >
> > And I would assert that such a search (i.e. the idea that such a search
> has
> > meaning in a anti-replay system) is already incorporating the assumption
> > that such a search is possible and must be possible for an anti-replay
> > system.
>
> You're confused about what an anti-replay system actually is - you're
> really talking about a specific implementation of one based on
> proof-of-publication, not the concept itself.
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 00000000000000001b728df6414af5ef95388557f1c3e5d29c569d7636b93681
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2014-12-21 15:41 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 28+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2014-12-12 9:05 [Bitcoin-development] Setting the record straight on Proof-of-Publication Peter Todd
2014-12-12 12:25 ` Gareth Williams
2014-12-12 17:04 ` Alex Mizrahi
[not found] ` <CAOG=w-v3qjG3zd_WhfFU-OGnsHZEuYvY82eL4GqcdgY6np5bvA@mail.gmail.com>
2014-12-12 17:50 ` Alex Mizrahi
2014-12-13 13:32 ` Gareth Williams
2014-12-15 4:52 ` Peter Todd
2014-12-17 11:55 ` Gareth Williams
2014-12-21 6:12 ` Peter Todd
2014-12-15 4:17 ` Peter Todd
2014-12-12 13:41 ` odinn
2014-12-12 14:17 ` Justus Ranvier
2014-12-15 4:59 ` Peter Todd
2014-12-17 1:16 ` odinn
2014-12-20 14:48 ` [Bitcoin-development] The relationship between Proof-of-Publication and Anti-Replay Oracles Peter Todd
[not found] ` <CAOG=w-vrHPY1aCNndmoW9QyCh9XnWyv8uZn2PyjZ6rNg2MoSSw@mail.gmail.com>
2014-12-21 5:52 ` Peter Todd
[not found] ` <CAOG=w-tZke--6OsqNjJhE9SOdCwdZYZM8iz1VBTFziegt9UZWw@mail.gmail.com>
2014-12-21 7:01 ` Peter Todd
[not found] ` <CAOG=w-s1_VXJAKxBpMOK=B50qnHjxSe4J=vwwSfFPRz0_Cb9rA@mail.gmail.com>
2014-12-21 15:32 ` Peter Todd
2014-12-21 11:25 ` Jorge Timón
2014-12-21 16:07 ` Peter Todd
2014-12-21 19:39 ` Jorge Timón
2014-12-21 10:01 ` Adam Back
2014-12-21 15:29 ` Peter Todd
2014-12-21 13:49 ` paul snow
2014-12-21 15:22 ` Peter Todd
2014-12-21 15:41 ` paul snow [this message]
2014-12-22 0:11 ` Peter Todd
2015-01-06 11:03 ` joliver
2014-12-22 20:05 ` Adam Back
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