From: "'Russell O'Connor' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
To: Eric <nerdyrugbyguy@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] BIP39 Extension for Manual Seed Phrase Creation
Date: Fri, 23 May 2025 16:45:22 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAMZUoK=A8T5N4ekR7r6+cfaxMCYL=a5_v0kqdPNVDzgcUY9xrg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <09A940A2-122A-445E-82EA-1B4E32AC7E34@gmail.com>
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FWIW, BIP-93 (codex32) was designed for both human and computer generated
randomness. Codex32 also supports human and computer generated secret
sharing.
See also <https://secretcodex32.com/>.
On Fri, May 23, 2025 at 11:35 AM Eric <nerdyrugbyguy@gmail•com> wrote:
> Quoting BIP39: "This guide is meant to be a way to transport
> computer-generated randomness with a human-readable transcription."
>
> BIP39 was meant to capture computer generated randomness. Manually
> calculating the sha256 hash is not practical.
>
> Using a separate tool to compute the checksum or last word is cumbersome
> and requires users to have a more advanced understanding of cryptography.
>
>
> On May 23, 2025 8:29:27 AM MDT, Kyle Honeycutt <coinables@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>
>> Respectfully, a "black box" is not trusted to generate mnemonic
>> passphrases, the standard is well-defined and generally followed across
>> wallets.
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki#Generating_the_mnemonic
>>
>> Users can create their own mnemonics in a trustless way following the
>> BIP39 standard published in 2013.
>>
>> Using any entropy source a user can perform a SHA256 hash on the entropy
>> to get a 256 bit string, then convert that to binary. Perform another
>> SHA256 hash on the binary, take the first 8 bits and solve for checksum and
>> then solve the rest of mnemonic words.
>>
>> On Fri, May 23, 2025, 6:15 AM Eric Kvam <nerdyrugbyguy@gmail•com> wrote:
>>
>>> *Motivation*
>>> Make it easy for users to manually create their seed phrase so that they
>>> don't have to trust a "black box" and allow for encoding derivation path in
>>> seed phrase to simplify recovery
>>>
>>> *How*
>>> Use every eighth word from the wordlist to generate 16 word phrases with
>>> 128 bits of entropy (no checksum). The most significant eight bits of each
>>> word are used as entropy. The least significant three bits of each word
>>> specify the derivation path.
>>>
>>> - *000* Derivation Path Not Specified
>>> - *001* m/44'/0'/0'
>>> - *010* m/49'/0'/0'
>>> - *011* m/84'/0'/0'
>>> - *100* m/48'/0'/0'/2'
>>> - *101* m/86'/0'/0'
>>>
>>> Up to seven derivation paths can be specified if all words have the same
>>> least significant bits. If the least significant bits of each word vary,
>>> there are 48 bits that can be used to encode meta-data. As long as
>>> meta-data is limited to certain allowable values, this provides a mechanism
>>> for error detection, similar to a checksum.
>>>
>>> *Benefits of Suggested Implementation*
>>>
>>> - The word length determines how the seed phrase should be
>>> interpreted. User only needs to know how many words they have and how many
>>> words the wallet supports to check for compatibility with this extension
>>> - Uses same wordlist to represent the same entropy as a 12 word
>>> phrase (could be a revision to BIP39 instead of a new BIP)
>>> - Manual procedure is very simple, each derivation path can use a
>>> shortened 256 word list which enjoys improved alphabetical separation of
>>> words
>>> - May prevent naive word selections which aren't limited to every
>>> eighth word (similar to what checksum does)
>>> - Can be extended further. For example, a 32 word phrase with the
>>> same entropy as a 24 word phrase could also be added. We can keep adding
>>> formats with unique word length and keep adding uses for the meta data as
>>> needed.
>>>
>>> --
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>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a139ee2e-473c-487b-a9b0-e68013fdb7cen%40googlegroups.com
>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a139ee2e-473c-487b-a9b0-e68013fdb7cen%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-05-23 21:12 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 6+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-05-23 11:25 Eric Kvam
2025-05-23 14:29 ` Kyle Honeycutt
[not found] ` <09A940A2-122A-445E-82EA-1B4E32AC7E34@gmail.com>
2025-05-23 20:45 ` 'Russell O'Connor' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List [this message]
2025-05-24 12:33 ` Eric Kvam
[not found] <20250523131541.1521C7C0DB0@smtp.postman.i2p>
2025-05-24 20:56 ` pithosian
2025-05-25 14:26 ` nerdyrugbyguy
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