From: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net>
To: Thomas Kerin <thomas.kerin@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] New BIP32 structure
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2014 14:19:54 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CANEZrP1F=cPrMevBd7sFrezWpL5BJ7b-ngJny0J7D19M7GgoNA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHv+tb5gYKEtbwxwwBGWk-M98kGnjGw3ffNQAaLQz=hb8BTaDg@mail.gmail.com>
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Obviously, SHA256 can't magically generate more entropy out of nothing, it
just stretches whatever is put in. If your seed was only 32 bits then
hashing wouldn't save you: every possible private key could easily be
calculated in advance.
On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Thomas Kerin <thomas.kerin@gmail•com>wrote:
> Isn't the length of the seed arbitrary anyway? Once decoded using whatever
> mnemonic implementation (electrums, or BIP0039) the bytestream is
> immediately passed to HMAC-SHA256 to generate the master key. No matter
> what your initial entropy is, it would be hashed anyway.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:
>
>> Ah, BIP32 allows for a range of entropy sizes and it so happens that they
>> picked 256 bits instead of 128 bits.
>>
>> I'd have thought that there is a right answer for this. 2^128 should not
>> be brute forceable, and longer sizes have a cost in terms of making the
>> seeds harder to write down on paper. So should this be a degree of freedom?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Mike Hearn <mike@plan99•net> wrote:
>>
>>> By the way, I just noticed that greenaddress.it is creating seeds that
>>> have 24 words instead of 12. Does anyone know what's up with that? They
>>> claim to be using BIP32 wallets so I wanted to see if they were using the
>>> default structure and if so, whether bitcoinj was compatible with it
>>> (before I switch to the one discussed here). But it seems we fall at the
>>> first hurdle ...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Mar 27, 2014 at 1:06 PM, Thomas Voegtlin <thomasv1@gmx•de>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 27/03/2014 12:30, Marek Palatinus a écrit :
>>>> > Ah, I forget to two things, which should be into the BIP as well:
>>>> >
>>>> > a) Gap factor for addresses; as Thomas mentioned, although some
>>>> software
>>>> > can watch almost unlimited amount of unused addresses, this is serious
>>>> > concern for lightweight or server-based wallets like Electrum or
>>>> > myTREZOR. myTREZOR currently uses gap factor 10, which is (from my
>>>> > experience so far) quite sane for most of users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I was planning to increase the number of available unused addresses
>>>> to 10 or 20 in the bip32 version of Electrum.
>>>>
>>>> Related to this, here is another idea I would like to submit:
>>>>
>>>> Instead of using a "gap limit" (maximal number of consecutive unused
>>>> addresses), I think we should get rid of the topology, and simply count
>>>> the number of unused addresses since the beginning of the sequence.
>>>> Indeed, the topology of the sequence of addresses is of no interest to
>>>> the user. Users often misinterpret "gap limit" as the "number of unused
>>>> addresses available", so I think we should just give them what they want
>>>> :) This is easier to understand, and it makes things more predictable,
>>>> because the wallet will always display the same number of unused
>>>> addresses (except when it is waiting for confirmations).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2014-03-27 13:20 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 100+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2014-03-26 20:49 Mike Hearn
2014-03-26 23:37 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-03-27 1:01 ` Alan Reiner
2014-03-27 6:15 ` Mike Belshe
2014-03-27 10:57 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 11:39 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 13:30 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 13:38 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 1:13 ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-27 5:34 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-03-27 7:09 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-27 9:42 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 11:35 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-03-27 15:43 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-27 15:57 ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-27 16:06 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-03-27 16:13 ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-27 16:07 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-27 16:14 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-03-27 16:21 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-03-27 16:28 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-03-27 17:49 ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-28 14:59 ` slush
2014-04-08 12:43 ` slush
2014-04-08 13:18 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-08 13:40 ` slush
2014-04-08 13:43 ` slush
2014-04-08 13:53 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-08 13:59 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-04-08 14:00 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-08 14:35 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-08 15:41 ` slush
2014-04-23 17:42 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 18:01 ` slush
2014-04-23 18:18 ` slush
2014-04-23 18:39 ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-23 18:46 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 19:00 ` Tier Nolan
2014-04-23 19:06 ` slush
2014-04-23 19:36 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-23 19:46 ` slush
2014-04-23 19:07 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-23 19:29 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 19:44 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 19:49 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 19:55 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 19:57 ` slush
2014-04-23 20:01 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:04 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 20:09 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:16 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 20:32 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:35 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 20:41 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:43 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 20:54 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 21:06 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 21:18 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 21:22 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 21:33 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 21:42 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 21:44 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 21:48 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-23 21:53 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 21:24 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-04-23 21:07 ` slush
2014-04-23 20:59 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:17 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-23 20:12 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 20:08 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-23 20:01 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-23 20:02 ` Luke-Jr
2014-04-23 20:04 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-24 6:54 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-04-24 7:10 ` Pieter Wuille
2014-04-24 7:21 ` Gregory Maxwell
2014-04-24 8:15 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-04-24 7:42 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-04-24 8:09 ` Mike Hearn
2014-04-23 18:48 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-04-08 14:49 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-04-08 15:46 ` slush
2014-04-08 15:58 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-04-08 16:24 ` slush
2014-03-27 11:20 ` Thomas Voegtlin
[not found] ` <CAJna-HhmFya+3W67qQt0wMhW=B4vJvwdkr-5WnU+KEaKq7uaUA@mail.gmail.com>
2014-03-27 12:06 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 12:28 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 12:49 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 13:12 ` Thomas Kerin
2014-03-27 13:19 ` Mike Hearn [this message]
2014-03-27 13:49 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 13:58 ` Jim
2014-03-27 14:20 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-27 15:17 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-03-27 13:07 ` Matias Alejo Garcia
2014-03-27 13:44 ` Pavol Rusnak
2014-03-27 13:53 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 14:03 ` Pavol Rusnak
[not found] ` <CAJna-HitjJbL9TnfxTY=+TvfaeNvZM6aPWmNYmHUCwmw6V8PUg@mail.gmail.com>
2014-03-27 15:04 ` Thomas Voegtlin
2014-03-27 11:36 ` Pavol Rusnak
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