* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
@ 2015-12-30 11:16 Martijn Meijering
2015-12-30 14:28 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Martijn Meijering @ 2015-12-30 11:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
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That looks very interesting. But is effectively blocking old clients from
seeing transactions really safe? After all, such transactions are still
confirmed on the new chain. A person might try to send a similar
transaction several times, perhaps with increasing fees in an attempt to
get it to confirm and end up paying someone several times.
Maybe we could require the tx version number to be increased as well so
transactions sent from old clients would never confirm? Perhaps your code
already includes this idea, I need to look at it more closely.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
2015-12-30 11:16 [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork Martijn Meijering
@ 2015-12-30 14:28 ` Peter Todd
0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-12-30 14:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Martijn Meijering; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 12:16:22PM +0100, Martijn Meijering via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> That looks very interesting. But is effectively blocking old clients from
> seeing transactions really safe? After all, such transactions are still
> confirmed on the new chain. A person might try to send a similar
> transaction several times, perhaps with increasing fees in an attempt to
> get it to confirm and end up paying someone several times.
It's very dangerous to simply send multiple transactions in such a way
that they don't double-spend each other; you have no good way of knowing
for sure that you're seeing the longest block chain with software alone.
Competently designed software with fee-bumping wouldn't allow that
mistake to be made; the UX should make it clear that txs sent are still
pending until confirmed or clearly double-spent.
> Maybe we could require the tx version number to be increased as well so
> transactions sent from old clients would never confirm? Perhaps your code
> already includes this idea, I need to look at it more closely.
That can mess up pre-signed transations, e.g. refunds.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
@ 2015-12-30 5:46 joe2015
2015-12-30 10:33 ` Marco Falke
2015-12-30 13:29 ` Jonathan Toomim
0 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: joe2015 @ 2015-12-30 5:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
Below is a proof-of-concept implementation of BIP102 as a softfork:
https://github.com/ZoomT/bitcoin/tree/2015_2mb_blocksize
https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/compare/2015_2mb_blocksize...ZoomT:2015_2mb_blocksize?diff=split&name=2015_2mb_blocksize
BIP102 is normally a hardfork. The softfork version (unofficial
codename BIP102s) uses the idea described here:
http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012073.html
The basic idea is that post-fork blocks are constructed in such a way
they can be mapped to valid blocks under the pre-fork rules. BIP102s
is a softfork in the sense that post-fork miners are still creating a
valid chain under the old rules, albeit indirectly.
From the POV of non-upgraded clients, BIP102s circumvents the
block-size limit by moving transaction validation data "outside" of
the block. This is a similar trick used by Segregated Witness and
Extension Blocks (both softfork proposals).
From the POV of upgraded clients, the block layout is unchanged,
except:
- A larger 2MB block-size limit (=BIP102);
- The header Merkle root has a new (backwards compatible)
interpretation;
- The coinbase encodes the Merkle root of the remaining txs.
Aside from this, blocks maintain their original format, i.e. a block
header followed by a vector of transactions. This keeps the
implementation simple, and is distinct from SW and EB.
Since BIP102s is a softfork it means that:
- A miner majority (e.g. 75%, 95%) force miner consensus (100%). This
is not true for a hardfork.
- Fraud risk is significantly reduced (6-conf unlikely depending on
activation threshold).
This should address some of the concerns with deploying a block-size
increase using a hardfork.
Notes:
- The same basic idea could be adapted to any of the other proposals
(BIP101, 2-4-8, BIP202, etc.).
- I used Jeff Garzik's BIP102 implementation which is incomplete (?).
The activation logic is left unchanged.
- I am not a Bitcoin dev so hopefully no embarrassing mistakes in my
code :-(
--joe
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
2015-12-30 5:46 joe2015
@ 2015-12-30 10:33 ` Marco Falke
2015-12-30 16:27 ` joe2015
2015-12-30 13:29 ` Jonathan Toomim
1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: Marco Falke @ 2015-12-30 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: joe2015; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
This is an interesting approach but I don't see how this is a soft
fork. (Just because something is not a hard fork, doesn't make it a
soft fork by definition)
Softforks don't require any nodes to upgrade. [1]
Nonetheless, as I understand your approach, it requires nodes to
upgrade. Otherwise they are missing all transactions but the coinbase
transactions. Thus, they cannot update their utxoset and are easily
susceptible to double spends...
Am I missing something obvious?
-- Marco
[1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Softfork#Implications
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
2015-12-30 10:33 ` Marco Falke
@ 2015-12-30 16:27 ` joe2015
[not found] ` <CAKJqnrE7W8aRgracL1cy_hBLWpVsTAQL4qg4ViSP9aCHvM1yvA@mail.gmail.com>
0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread
From: joe2015 @ 2015-12-30 16:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Marco Falke; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
On 2015-12-30 18:33, Marco Falke wrote:
> This is an interesting approach but I don't see how this is a soft
> fork. (Just because something is not a hard fork, doesn't make it a
> soft fork by definition)
> Softforks don't require any nodes to upgrade. [1]
> Nonetheless, as I understand your approach, it requires nodes to
> upgrade. Otherwise they are missing all transactions but the coinbase
> transactions. Thus, they cannot update their utxoset and are easily
> susceptible to double spends...
>
> Am I missing something obvious?
>
> -- Marco
>
>
> [1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Softfork#Implications
It just depends how you define "softfork". In my original write-up I
called it a "generalized" softfork, Peter suggested a "firm" fork, and
there are some suggestions for other names. Ultimately what you call it
is not very important.
--joe.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
2015-12-30 5:46 joe2015
2015-12-30 10:33 ` Marco Falke
@ 2015-12-30 13:29 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-30 13:57 ` Marcel Jamin
2015-12-30 14:19 ` Peter Todd
1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan Toomim @ 2015-12-30 13:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: joe2015; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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As a first impression, I think this proposal is intellectually interesting, but crufty and hackish and should never actually be deployed. Writing code for Bitcoin in a future in which we have deployed a few generalized softforks this way sounds terrifying.
Instead of this:
CTransaction GetTransaction(CBlock block, unsigned int index) {
return block->vtx[index];
}
We might have this:
CTransaction GetTransaction(CBlock block, unsigned int index) {
if (!IsBIP102sBlock(block)) {
return block->vtx[index];
} else {
if (!IsOtherGeneralizedSoftforkBlock(block)) {
// hooray! only one generalized softfork level to deal with!
return LookupBlock(GetGSHashFromCoinbase(block->vtx[0].vin[0].scriptSig))->vtx[index];
} else {
throw NotImplementedError; // I'm too lazy to write pseudocode this complicated just to argue a point
}
}
It might be possible to make that a bit simpler with recursion, or by doing subsequent generalized softforks in a way that doesn't have multi-levels-deep block-within-a-block-within-a-block stuff. Still: ugh.
On Dec 29, 2015, at 9:46 PM, joe2015--- via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Below is a proof-of-concept implementation of BIP102 as a softfork:
>
> https://github.com/ZoomT/bitcoin/tree/2015_2mb_blocksize
> https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/compare/2015_2mb_blocksize...ZoomT:2015_2mb_blocksize?diff=split&name=2015_2mb_blocksize
>
> BIP102 is normally a hardfork. The softfork version (unofficial
> codename BIP102s) uses the idea described here:
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012073.html
>
> The basic idea is that post-fork blocks are constructed in such a way
> they can be mapped to valid blocks under the pre-fork rules. BIP102s
> is a softfork in the sense that post-fork miners are still creating a
> valid chain under the old rules, albeit indirectly.
>
> From the POV of non-upgraded clients, BIP102s circumvents the
> block-size limit by moving transaction validation data "outside" of
> the block. This is a similar trick used by Segregated Witness and
> Extension Blocks (both softfork proposals).
>
> From the POV of upgraded clients, the block layout is unchanged,
> except:
> - A larger 2MB block-size limit (=BIP102);
> - The header Merkle root has a new (backwards compatible)
> interpretation;
> - The coinbase encodes the Merkle root of the remaining txs.
> Aside from this, blocks maintain their original format, i.e. a block
> header followed by a vector of transactions. This keeps the
> implementation simple, and is distinct from SW and EB.
>
> Since BIP102s is a softfork it means that:
> - A miner majority (e.g. 75%, 95%) force miner consensus (100%). This
> is not true for a hardfork.
> - Fraud risk is significantly reduced (6-conf unlikely depending on
> activation threshold).
> This should address some of the concerns with deploying a block-size
> increase using a hardfork.
>
> Notes:
>
> - The same basic idea could be adapted to any of the other proposals
> (BIP101, 2-4-8, BIP202, etc.).
> - I used Jeff Garzik's BIP102 implementation which is incomplete (?).
> The activation logic is left unchanged.
> - I am not a Bitcoin dev so hopefully no embarrassing mistakes in my
> code :-(
>
> --joe
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
2015-12-30 13:29 ` Jonathan Toomim
@ 2015-12-30 13:57 ` Marcel Jamin
2015-12-30 14:19 ` Peter Todd
1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Marcel Jamin @ 2015-12-30 13:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jonathan Toomim; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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I guess the same could be said about the softfork flavoured SW
implementation. In any case, the strategy pattern helps with code structure
in situations like this.
2015-12-30 14:29 GMT+01:00 Jonathan Toomim via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>:
> As a first impression, I think this proposal is intellectually
> interesting, but crufty and hackish and should never actually be deployed.
> Writing code for Bitcoin in a future in which we have deployed a few
> generalized softforks this way sounds terrifying.
>
> Instead of this:
>
> CTransaction GetTransaction(CBlock block, unsigned int index) {
> return block->vtx[index];
> }
>
> We might have this:
>
> CTransaction GetTransaction(CBlock block, unsigned int index) {
> if (!IsBIP102sBlock(block)) {
> return block->vtx[index];
> } else {
> if (!IsOtherGeneralizedSoftforkBlock(block)) {
> // hooray! only one generalized softfork level to deal
> with!
> return
> LookupBlock(GetGSHashFromCoinbase(block->vtx[0].vin[0].scriptSig))->vtx[index];
> } else {
> throw NotImplementedError; // I'm too lazy to write
> pseudocode this complicated just to argue a point
> }
> }
>
> It might be possible to make that a bit simpler with recursion, or by
> doing subsequent generalized softforks in a way that doesn't have
> multi-levels-deep block-within-a-block-within-a-block stuff. Still: ugh.
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2015, at 9:46 PM, joe2015--- via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> > Below is a proof-of-concept implementation of BIP102 as a softfork:
> >
> > https://github.com/ZoomT/bitcoin/tree/2015_2mb_blocksize
> >
> https://github.com/jgarzik/bitcoin/compare/2015_2mb_blocksize...ZoomT:2015_2mb_blocksize?diff=split&name=2015_2mb_blocksize
> >
> > BIP102 is normally a hardfork. The softfork version (unofficial
> > codename BIP102s) uses the idea described here:
> >
> http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2015-December/012073.html
> >
> > The basic idea is that post-fork blocks are constructed in such a way
> > they can be mapped to valid blocks under the pre-fork rules. BIP102s
> > is a softfork in the sense that post-fork miners are still creating a
> > valid chain under the old rules, albeit indirectly.
> >
> > From the POV of non-upgraded clients, BIP102s circumvents the
> > block-size limit by moving transaction validation data "outside" of
> > the block. This is a similar trick used by Segregated Witness and
> > Extension Blocks (both softfork proposals).
> >
> > From the POV of upgraded clients, the block layout is unchanged,
> > except:
> > - A larger 2MB block-size limit (=BIP102);
> > - The header Merkle root has a new (backwards compatible)
> > interpretation;
> > - The coinbase encodes the Merkle root of the remaining txs.
> > Aside from this, blocks maintain their original format, i.e. a block
> > header followed by a vector of transactions. This keeps the
> > implementation simple, and is distinct from SW and EB.
> >
> > Since BIP102s is a softfork it means that:
> > - A miner majority (e.g. 75%, 95%) force miner consensus (100%). This
> > is not true for a hardfork.
> > - Fraud risk is significantly reduced (6-conf unlikely depending on
> > activation threshold).
> > This should address some of the concerns with deploying a block-size
> > increase using a hardfork.
> >
> > Notes:
> >
> > - The same basic idea could be adapted to any of the other proposals
> > (BIP101, 2-4-8, BIP202, etc.).
> > - I used Jeff Garzik's BIP102 implementation which is incomplete (?).
> > The activation logic is left unchanged.
> > - I am not a Bitcoin dev so hopefully no embarrassing mistakes in my
> > code :-(
> >
> > --joe
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > bitcoin-dev mailing list
> > bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
2015-12-30 13:29 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-30 13:57 ` Marcel Jamin
@ 2015-12-30 14:19 ` Peter Todd
2015-12-30 14:31 ` Peter Todd
2015-12-30 15:00 ` Jonathan Toomim
1 sibling, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-12-30 14:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jonathan Toomim; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 05:29:05AM -0800, Jonathan Toomim via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> As a first impression, I think this proposal is intellectually interesting, but crufty and hackish and should never actually be deployed. Writing code for Bitcoin in a future in which we have deployed a few generalized softforks this way sounds terrifying.
<snip>
> It might be possible to make that a bit simpler with recursion, or by doing subsequent generalized softforks in a way that doesn't have multi-levels-deep block-within-a-block-within-a-block stuff. Still: ugh.
Your fear is misplaced: it's trivial to avoid recursion with a bit of
planning.
For instance, if Bitcoin was redesigned to incorporate the forced fork
concept, instead of block headers committing to just a merkle root,
they could instead commit to H(version + digest)
For version == 0, digest would be a merkle root of all transactions. If
the version was > 0, any digest would be allowed and the block would be
interpreted as a NOP with no effect on the UTXO set.
In the event of a major change - e.g. what would otherwise be a
hard-forking change to the way the merkle root was calculated - a
soft-fork would change the block validity rules to make version == 0
invalid, and verison == 1 blocks would interpret the digest according to
the new merkle root rules. Again, version > 1 blocks would be treated as
NOPs.
A good exercise is to apply the above to the existing Bitcoin ecosystem
as a soft-fork - it certainely can be done, and done right is
technically very simple.
Regardless of how it's done - existing Bitcoin compatible or clean sheet
redesign - you get the significant safety advantages soft-forks have
over hard-forks in nearly all situations where you'd have to do a
hard-fork. OTOH, it's kinda scary how this institutionalizes what could
be seen as 51% attacks, possibly giving miners significantly more
control over the system politically. I'm not sure I agree with that
viewpoint - miners can do this anyway - but that has made people shy
away from promoting this idea in the past. (previously it's been often
referred to as an "evil" soft-fork)
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000000831fc2554d9370aeba2701fff09980123d24a615eee7416
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
2015-12-30 14:19 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-12-30 14:31 ` Peter Todd
2015-12-30 15:00 ` Jonathan Toomim
1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-12-30 14:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jonathan Toomim, bitcoin-dev
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On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 06:19:55AM -0800, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 05:29:05AM -0800, Jonathan Toomim via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > As a first impression, I think this proposal is intellectually interesting, but crufty and hackish and should never actually be deployed. Writing code for Bitcoin in a future in which we have deployed a few generalized softforks this way sounds terrifying.
>
> <snip>
>
> > It might be possible to make that a bit simpler with recursion, or by doing subsequent generalized softforks in a way that doesn't have multi-levels-deep block-within-a-block-within-a-block stuff. Still: ugh.
>
> Your fear is misplaced: it's trivial to avoid recursion with a bit of
> planning.
>
> For instance, if Bitcoin was redesigned to incorporate the forced fork
Actually, a better name is probably "forced soft-fork", making this
clear we're using the soft-fork mechanism to force everyone to upgrade.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000000831fc2554d9370aeba2701fff09980123d24a615eee7416
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork.
2015-12-30 14:19 ` Peter Todd
2015-12-30 14:31 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-12-30 15:00 ` Jonathan Toomim
1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan Toomim @ 2015-12-30 15:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
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On Dec 30, 2015, at 6:19 AM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> Your fear is misplaced: it's trivial to avoid recursion with a bit of
> planning...
That makes some sense. I downgrade my emotions from "a future in which we have deployed a few generalized softforks this way sounds terrifying" to "the idea of a future in which we have deployed at least one generalized softfork this way gives me the heebie jeebies."
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2016-01-12 3:59 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
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2015-12-30 11:16 [bitcoin-dev] An implementation of BIP102 as a softfork Martijn Meijering
2015-12-30 14:28 ` Peter Todd
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2015-12-30 5:46 joe2015
2015-12-30 10:33 ` Marco Falke
2015-12-30 16:27 ` joe2015
[not found] ` <CAKJqnrE7W8aRgracL1cy_hBLWpVsTAQL4qg4ViSP9aCHvM1yvA@mail.gmail.com>
2016-01-03 3:51 ` joe2015
2016-01-04 18:04 ` Nick ODell
2016-01-05 1:26 ` joe2015
2016-01-12 3:58 ` joe2015
2015-12-30 13:29 ` Jonathan Toomim
2015-12-30 13:57 ` Marcel Jamin
2015-12-30 14:19 ` Peter Todd
2015-12-30 14:31 ` Peter Todd
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