* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-18 5:55 ` Mark Friedenbach
@ 2015-09-18 17:10 ` Dave Scotese
2015-09-18 17:28 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-18 20:06 ` Matt Corallo
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Dave Scotese @ 2015-09-18 17:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mark Friedenbach; +Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list
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"But if a metric were chosen that addressed my concerns (worst case
propagation and validation time), then I could be in favor of an initial
bump that allowed a larger number of typical transactions in a block."
+1. A ratio is much more valuable than a simple metric. It seems clearly
difficult to identify a reasonable limit to block size, but the ratio
between any one of several possible metrics and bytes in a block would work
well and may already have a very good reasonable expected range.
I like BTCDaysDestroyed (BTCDD) best. If it might be time consuming to
compute, then it need only be computed for all blocks less than or equal in
size to the average size of the largest 200 or so blocks in the previous
difficulty period. To exceed that limit, a miner would have to ensure that
the block has enough BTCDD per byte. "Enough" could be hardcoded in each
release, or if it's simple enough, use the ratio as computed over all the
blocks in the previous difficulty period as the lower limit.
notplato
On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 10:55 PM, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Correction of a correction, in-line:
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 5:51 PM, Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> > - Many interested or at least willing to accept a "short term bump", a
>> > hard fork to modify block size limit regime to be cost-based via
>> > "net-utxo" rather than a simple static hard limit. 2-4-8 and 17%/year
>> > were debated and seemed "in range" with what might work as a short term
>> > bump - net after applying the new cost metric.
>>
>> I would be careful to point out that hard numbers were deliberately NOT
>> discussed. Though some general things were thrown out, they were not
>> extensively discussed nor agreed to. I personally think 2-4 is "in
>> range", though 8 maybe not so much. Of course it depends on exactly how
>> the non-blocksize limit accounting/adjusting is done.
>>
>> Still, the "greatest common denominator" agreement did not seem to be
>> agreeing to an increase which continues over time, but which instead
>> limits itself to a set, smooth increase for X time and then requires a
>> second hardfork if there is agreement on a need for more blocksize at
>> that point.
>>
>
> Perhaps it is accurate to say that there wasn't consensus at all except
> that (1) we think we can work together on resolving this impasse (yay!),
> and (2) it is conceivable that changing from block size to some other
> metric might provide the basis for a compromise on near-term numbers.
>
> As an example, I do not think the net-UTXO metric provides any benefit
> with respect to scalability, and in some ways makes the situation worse
> (even though it helpfully solves an unrelated problem of spammy dust
> outputs). But there are other possible metrics and I maintain hope that
> data will show the benefit of another metric or other metrics combined with
> net-UTXO in a way that will allow us to reach consensus.
>
> As a further example, I also am quite concerned about 2-4-8MB with either
> block size or net-UTXO as the base metric. As you say, it depends on how
> the non-blocksize limit accounting/adjusting is done... But if a metric
> were chosen that addressed my concerns (worst case propagation and
> validation time), then I could be in favor of an initial bump that allowed
> a larger number of typical transactions in a block.
>
> But where I really need to disagree is on the requirement for a 2nd hard
> fork. I will go on record as being definitively against this. While being
> conservative with respect to exponentials, I would very much like to make
> sure that there is a long-term growth curve as part of any proposal. I am
> willing to accept a hard-fork if the adopted plan is too conservative, but
> I do not want to be kicking the can down the road to a scheduled 2nd hard
> fork that absolutely must occur. That, I feel, could be a more dangerous
> outcome than an exponential that outlasts conservative historical trends.
>
> I commend Jeff for writing a Chatham-rules summary of the outcome of some
> hallway conversations that occurred. On the whole I think his summary does
> represent the majority view of the opinions expressed by core developers at
> the workshop. I will caution though that on nearly every issue there were
> those expressed disagreement but did not fight the issue, and those who
> said nothing and left unpolled opinions. Nevertheless this summary is
> informative as it feeds forwards into the design of proposals that will be
> made prior to the Hong Kong workshop in December, in order that they have a
> higher likelihood of success.
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
--
I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need a
techie?
I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
<http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com> which
now accepts Bitcoin.
I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
Nakamoto
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-18 17:10 ` Dave Scotese
@ 2015-09-18 17:28 ` Eric Lombrozo
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-09-18 17:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Scotese, Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev, Mark Friedenbach
Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list
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To be quite frank, I'm a little disappointed we've fallen back on arguing over numbers pulled out of a hat rather than discussing far more fundamental issues such as the dev process generally, consensus building, and our basic understanding of what Bitcoin really is, its strengths and weaknesses, where it shows most promise, and communicating a more unified vision to the industry and the public.
On September 18, 2015 10:10:08 AM PDT, Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>"But if a metric were chosen that addressed my concerns (worst case
>propagation and validation time), then I could be in favor of an
>initial
>bump that allowed a larger number of typical transactions in a block."
>
>+1. A ratio is much more valuable than a simple metric. It seems
>clearly
>difficult to identify a reasonable limit to block size, but the ratio
>between any one of several possible metrics and bytes in a block would
>work
>well and may already have a very good reasonable expected range.
>
>I like BTCDaysDestroyed (BTCDD) best. If it might be time consuming to
>compute, then it need only be computed for all blocks less than or
>equal in
>size to the average size of the largest 200 or so blocks in the
>previous
>difficulty period. To exceed that limit, a miner would have to ensure
>that
>the block has enough BTCDD per byte. "Enough" could be hardcoded in
>each
>release, or if it's simple enough, use the ratio as computed over all
>the
>blocks in the previous difficulty period as the lower limit.
>
>notplato
>
>On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 10:55 PM, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev <
>bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Correction of a correction, in-line:
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 5:51 PM, Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>>> > - Many interested or at least willing to accept a "short term
>bump", a
>>> > hard fork to modify block size limit regime to be cost-based via
>>> > "net-utxo" rather than a simple static hard limit. 2-4-8 and
>17%/year
>>> > were debated and seemed "in range" with what might work as a short
>term
>>> > bump - net after applying the new cost metric.
>>>
>>> I would be careful to point out that hard numbers were deliberately
>NOT
>>> discussed. Though some general things were thrown out, they were not
>>> extensively discussed nor agreed to. I personally think 2-4 is "in
>>> range", though 8 maybe not so much. Of course it depends on exactly
>how
>>> the non-blocksize limit accounting/adjusting is done.
>>>
>>> Still, the "greatest common denominator" agreement did not seem to
>be
>>> agreeing to an increase which continues over time, but which instead
>>> limits itself to a set, smooth increase for X time and then requires
>a
>>> second hardfork if there is agreement on a need for more blocksize
>at
>>> that point.
>>>
>>
>> Perhaps it is accurate to say that there wasn't consensus at all
>except
>> that (1) we think we can work together on resolving this impasse
>(yay!),
>> and (2) it is conceivable that changing from block size to some other
>> metric might provide the basis for a compromise on near-term numbers.
>>
>> As an example, I do not think the net-UTXO metric provides any
>benefit
>> with respect to scalability, and in some ways makes the situation
>worse
>> (even though it helpfully solves an unrelated problem of spammy dust
>> outputs). But there are other possible metrics and I maintain hope
>that
>> data will show the benefit of another metric or other metrics
>combined with
>> net-UTXO in a way that will allow us to reach consensus.
>>
>> As a further example, I also am quite concerned about 2-4-8MB with
>either
>> block size or net-UTXO as the base metric. As you say, it depends on
>how
>> the non-blocksize limit accounting/adjusting is done... But if a
>metric
>> were chosen that addressed my concerns (worst case propagation and
>> validation time), then I could be in favor of an initial bump that
>allowed
>> a larger number of typical transactions in a block.
>>
>> But where I really need to disagree is on the requirement for a 2nd
>hard
>> fork. I will go on record as being definitively against this. While
>being
>> conservative with respect to exponentials, I would very much like to
>make
>> sure that there is a long-term growth curve as part of any proposal.
>I am
>> willing to accept a hard-fork if the adopted plan is too
>conservative, but
>> I do not want to be kicking the can down the road to a scheduled 2nd
>hard
>> fork that absolutely must occur. That, I feel, could be a more
>dangerous
>> outcome than an exponential that outlasts conservative historical
>trends.
>>
>> I commend Jeff for writing a Chatham-rules summary of the outcome of
>some
>> hallway conversations that occurred. On the whole I think his summary
>does
>> represent the majority view of the opinions expressed by core
>developers at
>> the workshop. I will caution though that on nearly every issue there
>were
>> those expressed disagreement but did not fight the issue, and those
>who
>> said nothing and left unpolled opinions. Nevertheless this summary is
>> informative as it feeds forwards into the design of proposals that
>will be
>> made prior to the Hong Kong workshop in December, in order that they
>have a
>> higher likelihood of success.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
>
>--
>I like to provide some work at no charge to prove my value. Do you need
>a
>techie?
>I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing
><http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha).
>I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com>
>which
>now accepts Bitcoin.
>I also code for The Dollar Vigilante <http://dollarvigilante.com/>.
>"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi
>Nakamoto
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>bitcoin-dev mailing list
>bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-18 5:55 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-09-18 17:10 ` Dave Scotese
@ 2015-09-18 20:06 ` Matt Corallo
2015-09-18 22:33 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-19 1:47 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-18 22:15 ` [bitcoin-dev] Improving Blocksize Communication Through Markets Paul Sztorc
2015-09-20 11:41 ` Isidor Zeuner
3 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Matt Corallo @ 2015-09-18 20:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mark Friedenbach; +Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list
I did not intend to imply that there was agreement on a desire to
schedule a second hardfork. My wording may have been a bit too loose.
Instead, I believe there was much agreement that doing a short-term
hardfork now, with many agreeing that a second would hopefully be
entirely unnecessary/impossible, while others thought that a second
would be necessary and would have to happen. While this may set up a
similar controversy again in several years, I think everyone agreed that
we cannot predict the future and I, personally, think none of us should
be committing to a viewpoint for what should be done at that time.
Personally, I think it is also critical that there be no messaging that
people should rely on or assume there will be a future increase after a
short-term bump (which I also do not believe people should be relying on
now).
Matt
On 09/18/15 05:55, Mark Friedenbach wrote:
> Correction of a correction, in-line:
>
> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 5:51 PM, Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
> > - Many interested or at least willing to accept a "short term bump", a
> > hard fork to modify block size limit regime to be cost-based via
> > "net-utxo" rather than a simple static hard limit. 2-4-8 and 17%/year
> > were debated and seemed "in range" with what might work as a short term
> > bump - net after applying the new cost metric.
>
> I would be careful to point out that hard numbers were deliberately NOT
> discussed. Though some general things were thrown out, they were not
> extensively discussed nor agreed to. I personally think 2-4 is "in
> range", though 8 maybe not so much. Of course it depends on exactly how
> the non-blocksize limit accounting/adjusting is done.
>
> Still, the "greatest common denominator" agreement did not seem to be
> agreeing to an increase which continues over time, but which instead
> limits itself to a set, smooth increase for X time and then requires a
> second hardfork if there is agreement on a need for more blocksize at
> that point.
>
>
> Perhaps it is accurate to say that there wasn't consensus at all except
> that (1) we think we can work together on resolving this impasse (yay!),
> and (2) it is conceivable that changing from block size to some other
> metric might provide the basis for a compromise on near-term numbers.
>
> As an example, I do not think the net-UTXO metric provides any benefit
> with respect to scalability, and in some ways makes the situation worse
> (even though it helpfully solves an unrelated problem of spammy dust
> outputs). But there are other possible metrics and I maintain hope that
> data will show the benefit of another metric or other metrics combined
> with net-UTXO in a way that will allow us to reach consensus.
>
> As a further example, I also am quite concerned about 2-4-8MB with
> either block size or net-UTXO as the base metric. As you say, it depends
> on how the non-blocksize limit accounting/adjusting is done... But if a
> metric were chosen that addressed my concerns (worst case propagation
> and validation time), then I could be in favor of an initial bump that
> allowed a larger number of typical transactions in a block.
>
> But where I really need to disagree is on the requirement for a 2nd hard
> fork. I will go on record as being definitively against this. While
> being conservative with respect to exponentials, I would very much like
> to make sure that there is a long-term growth curve as part of any
> proposal. I am willing to accept a hard-fork if the adopted plan is too
> conservative, but I do not want to be kicking the can down the road to a
> scheduled 2nd hard fork that absolutely must occur. That, I feel, could
> be a more dangerous outcome than an exponential that outlasts
> conservative historical trends.
>
> I commend Jeff for writing a Chatham-rules summary of the outcome of
> some hallway conversations that occurred. On the whole I think his
> summary does represent the majority view of the opinions expressed by
> core developers at the workshop. I will caution though that on nearly
> every issue there were those expressed disagreement but did not fight
> the issue, and those who said nothing and left unpolled opinions.
> Nevertheless this summary is informative as it feeds forwards into the
> design of proposals that will be made prior to the Hong Kong workshop in
> December, in order that they have a higher likelihood of success.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-18 20:06 ` Matt Corallo
@ 2015-09-18 22:33 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-19 16:03 ` cipher anthem
2015-09-19 1:47 ` Peter Todd
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2015-09-18 22:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Matt Corallo; +Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list
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Any change that results in this happening all over again in a few years
does not have consensus.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-18 22:33 ` Mike Hearn
@ 2015-09-19 16:03 ` cipher anthem
2015-09-19 20:43 ` Mike Hearn
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: cipher anthem @ 2015-09-19 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: hearn; +Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 16:03 ` cipher anthem
@ 2015-09-19 20:43 ` Mike Hearn
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2015-09-19 20:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: cipher anthem; +Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list
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>
> Let me get this straight. You start this whole debate with a "kick the can
> down the road" proposal to increase the block size to 20MB, which obviously
> would require another hard fork in the future, but if someone else proposes
> a similar "kicka the can" proposal you will outright reject it?
>
Which part of "in the next few years" was unclear?
This seems to be a persistent problem in the block size debates: the
assumption that there are only two numbers, zero and infinity.
BIP101 tops out at 8 gigabyte blocks, which would represent extremely high
transaction rates compared to today. *If* Bitcoin ever became so popular,
it would be a long way in the future, and many things could have happened:
1. Bitcoin may have become as irrelevant as the Commodore 64 is.
2. We may have invented upgrades that make Bitcoin 100x more efficient
than today.
3. Hardware may have improved so much that it no longer matters.
4. The world may have been devastated by nuclear war and nobody gives a
shit about internet currencies anymore, because there is no internet.
It's silly to ignore the time dimension in these decisions. Bitcoin will
not last forever: even if it becomes very successful it will one day it
will be replaced by something better, so it does not have to handle
infinite usage.
But hey, as you bring it up, I'd have been happy with no upper limit at
all. There's nothing magic about 8 gigabytes. I go along with BIP 101
because it is still the only proposal that is both reasonable and
implemented, and I'm willing to compromise.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-18 20:06 ` Matt Corallo
2015-09-18 22:33 ` Mike Hearn
@ 2015-09-19 1:47 ` Peter Todd
2015-09-19 6:06 ` NxtChg
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-09-19 1:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Matt Corallo; +Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list
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On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 08:06:23PM +0000, Matt Corallo via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> I did not intend to imply that there was agreement on a desire to
> schedule a second hardfork. My wording may have been a bit too loose.
> Instead, I believe there was much agreement that doing a short-term
> hardfork now, with many agreeing that a second would hopefully be
> entirely unnecessary/impossible, while others thought that a second
> would be necessary and would have to happen. While this may set up a
> similar controversy again in several years, I think everyone agreed that
> we cannot predict the future and I, personally, think none of us should
> be committing to a viewpoint for what should be done at that time.
>
> Personally, I think it is also critical that there be no messaging that
> people should rely on or assume there will be a future increase after a
> short-term bump (which I also do not believe people should be relying on
> now).
Agreed!
We still seem to be in a possition where there is fundemental
disagreements about the threat model we should design for, and
ultimately, what we want Bitcoin to be. For instance, yesterday I was on
a blocksize panel, and Valery Vavilov - CEO of the ASIC manufacturer and
miner BitFury - stated that he thought we needed to setup a system of
large, high-bandwidth, high-powered, Bitcoin nodes at institutions such
as universities and large companies to allow the Bitcoin blocksize to be
raised multiple orders of magnitude. (e.g. hundreds of megabytes, or
even multiple gigabytes) In discussion with him he seemed to expect that
we'd have just a few hundred Bitcoin nodes at most, with SPV being the
standard way of using Bitcoin.
While to many of us that sounds crazy, if you're threat model assumes
Bitcoin is a legal/regulated service provided by a highly trusted mining
community it's a reasonable design. Mike Hearn recently posted his
threat model, which specifically argues we should assume governments are
not a threat. (and Hearn has previously argued that the design of
Bitcoin assumes a majority of miners are "honest" rather than merely
economically rational) Similarly Gavin Andresen was also on that panel,
and stated that he believes the idea that Bitcoin has O(n^2) scaling is
wrong, implying he doesn't think a large % of the Bitcoin user base will
continue to run fully validating nodes. (note that there are other
possibilities he could be referring to here, although again with
different security assumptions and/or unproven tech)
The main objection I raised during the committer/contributor discussions
to the idea of a "short term bump" was messaging. I think it's fair to
say that nearly all the support for a small blocksize increase stemmed
from the (perceived) need to give Bitcoin users and Bitcoin
infrastructure some more time to adapt to a world where the blocksize
does not grow sufficiently to meet demand, resulting in higher
transaction fees and the practical requirement to use the Bitcoin
blockchain more efficiently. (or of course the development of genuinely
scalable blockchain technology) With that in mind, it's important that
we properly communicate that fact, or as Hearn replied, we'll run into
the same problem all over again in a few years, but with even less
safety margin in the system.
My second objection was one of science. Any bump should be accompanied
by some kind of model describing scientifically what we were trying to
achieve and where the numbers chosen came from. For instance, Pieter
Wuille's BIP103 proposes 17% per year based on a bandwidth growth model,
the assumption that bandwidth is the bottleneck we're trying to keep
constant, and the design criteria to keep centralization roughly
constant. (all else being equal) Sure there's lots of potential flaws in
that proposal, but the _message_ that we're basing it on science rather
than political "horse-trading" is very important.
As for the disagreements, it's quite likely that we can't come to
genuine consensus in the fact of those fundemental disagreements about
what Bitcoin should be. I don't have any good way to resolve that, and
I'm open to suggestions!
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
000000000000000000da942d1651d405c157821a3fa55bd0c11cd9b39321e574
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 1:47 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-09-19 6:06 ` NxtChg
2015-09-19 6:56 ` Eric Voskuil
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: NxtChg @ 2015-09-19 6:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd, Matt Corallo; +Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list
>While to many of us that sounds crazy, if you're threat model assumes
>Bitcoin is a legal/regulated service provided by a highly trusted mining
>community it's a reasonable design.
There is a large, grey area all the way to "legal/regulated service provided by a highly trusted mining community".
Painting the worst looking picture is either a defect in thinking or intentional FUD.
> Mike Hearn recently posted his threat model, which specifically argues we
> should assume governments are not a threat.
There are two ways to fight governments:
1. either you become too big to close, so political repercussions become unacceptable
2. or you become too tiny to hunt, in which case you are much better off with a specialized alt-coin, designed specifically for that purpose.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 6:06 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-19 6:56 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-09-19 7:27 ` NxtChg
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eric Voskuil @ 2015-09-19 6:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: NxtChg, Peter Todd, Matt Corallo
Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list, Libbitcoin
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On 09/18/2015 11:06 PM, NxtChg via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>> While to many of us that sounds crazy, if you're threat model assumes
>> Bitcoin is a legal/regulated service provided by a highly trusted
>> mining community it's a reasonable design.
>
> There is a large, grey area all the way to "legal/regulated service
> provided by a highly trusted mining community". Painting the worst
> looking picture is either a defect in thinking or intentional FUD.
The state is the threat in the Bitcoin threat model. You comments below
acknowledge it. The assumption of hostile state actors is the only
rational starting point. That which is regulated (and regulatable) in
Bitcoin is the attack surface.
While of course there are various degrees of weakness, the reference to
"legal/regulated service provided by a highly trusted mining" as the
threat is by no means irrational or misdirecting. This threat represents
the difference between Bitcoin and Fedcoin.
I found Mike's threat model downright disturbing. All benefits of
Bitcoin arise from its resistance to this threat. Anyone investor in
this space should be paying attention... the apparent benefits of
Bitcoin will vaporize with regulation.
>> Mike Hearn recently posted his threat model, which specifically
>> argues we should assume governments are not a threat.
>
> There are two ways to fight governments:
>
> 1. either you become too big to close, so political repercussions
> become unacceptable
This is extremely naive. At a minimum, getting popular/successful (and
regulated) is the formula for regulatory capture.
> 2. or you become too tiny to hunt, in which case you are much better
> off with a specialized alt-coin, designed specifically for that
> purpose.
I assume you are referring some marginal and largely irrelevant effort.
False dichotomy.
[cross-posted to libbitcoin]
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 6:56 ` Eric Voskuil
@ 2015-09-19 7:27 ` NxtChg
2015-09-19 7:39 ` Eric Voskuil
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: NxtChg @ 2015-09-19 7:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Voskuil, Peter Todd, Matt Corallo
Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list, Libbitcoin
>The state is the threat in the Bitcoin threat model. You comments below
>acknowledge it. The assumption of hostile state actors is the only
>rational starting point. That which is regulated (and regulatable)
>in Bitcoin is the attack surface.
I think, you just proved my point. If your goal is to shrink the attack surface as much as possible,
you are better off being a marginalized alt-coin.
>This threat represents the difference between Bitcoin and Fedcoin.
_This_ is the false dichotomy. There's a range of coins between DarkCoin and FedCoin.
>This is extremely naive. At a minimum, getting popular/successful (and regulated) is the formula for regulatory capture.
Let me give you an example.
Suppose you are a regular guy, say Peter Todd, and you are faced with 10 policemen in anti-riot gear.
You can fight them in two ways:
1. become stronger, so you could provide an adequate response, either by turning into Hulk or by getting another 30-50 Peter Todds.
2. lose some fat, learn a few parkour tricks and move around mostly by night behind dumpsters.
The worst you can fare is just being Peter Todd with a backpack and an expensive camera on his neck, wandering around the city in daylight.
Your vision of Bitcoin is the most vulnerable to government attacks.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 7:27 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-19 7:39 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-09-19 7:57 ` NxtChg
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eric Voskuil @ 2015-09-19 7:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: NxtChg, Peter Todd, Matt Corallo
Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list, Libbitcoin
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On 09/19/2015 12:27 AM, NxtChg wrote:
>> This is extremely naive. At a minimum, getting popular/successful (and regulated) is the formula for regulatory capture.
>
> Let me give you an example.
>
> Suppose you are a regular guy, say Peter Todd, and you are faced with 10 policemen in anti-riot gear.
>
> You can fight them in two ways:
>
> 1. become stronger, so you could provide an adequate response, either by turning into Hulk or by getting another 30-50 Peter Todds.
Your vision of censorship resistance is to become such a strong central
authority that you can resist it in direct physical confrontation. If
you succeed at this, you are the threat.
> 2. lose some fat, learn a few parkour tricks and move around mostly by night behind dumpsters.
And your alternative is to lurk in dark corners.
The inability to see another option is the inability to understand what
Satoshi created.
e
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 7:39 ` Eric Voskuil
@ 2015-09-19 7:57 ` NxtChg
2015-09-19 8:52 ` Eric Voskuil
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: NxtChg @ 2015-09-19 7:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Voskuil, Peter Todd, Matt Corallo
Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list, Libbitcoin
>Your vision of censorship resistance is to become such a strong
>central authority that you can resist it in direct physical confrontation.
>If you succeed at this, you are the threat.
My vision is a strong _decentralized_ system, which is:
a) too important to close,
b) able to provide adequate response to governments, like EFF or Google do.
Having a substantial attack surface and, at the same time, not having significant power is the worst fighting strategy.
It's the "Peter Todd vs 10 cops" scenario.
>The inability to see another option is the inability to understand what Satoshi created.
So your closing remark is basically, "you're too stupid to understand"?
I'll take it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 7:57 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-19 8:52 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-09-19 13:32 ` NxtChg
2015-09-19 20:57 ` Mike Hearn
0 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eric Voskuil @ 2015-09-19 8:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: NxtChg, Peter Todd, Matt Corallo
Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list, Libbitcoin
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On 09/19/2015 12:57 AM, NxtChg wrote:>
>> Your vision of censorship resistance is to become such a strong
>> central authority that you can resist it in direct physical
>> confrontation. If you succeed at this, you are the threat.
>
> My vision is a strong _decentralized_ system, which is:
>
> a) too important to close,
Your argument is that the state is not a threat to a system designed to
deprive the state of seigniorage, because the state will see that system
as too important?
Bitcoin cannot be both decentralized and reliant on being, "too
important to close". If it can be closed there is insufficient
decentralization.
I was concerned that this was going off topic for a technical forum.
However this is the central technical issue of Bitcoin. If one does not
understand the threat then one cannot model it or design systems to
defend against it. On the other hand, this is unfortunately not new
territory, so I'll leave it at this, which is also not news to most of us...
> b) able to provide adequate response to governments, like EFF or
Google do.
"The National Security Agency paid millions of dollars to cover the
costs of major internet companies involved in the Prism surveillance
program after a court ruled that some of the agency's activities were
unconstitutional, according to top-secret material passed to the Guardian.
The technology companies, which the NSA says includes Google..."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/23/nsa-prism-costs-tech-companies-paid
e
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 8:52 ` Eric Voskuil
@ 2015-09-19 13:32 ` NxtChg
2015-09-19 20:57 ` Mike Hearn
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: NxtChg @ 2015-09-19 13:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Voskuil, Peter Todd, Matt Corallo
Cc: Bitcoin development mailing list, Libbitcoin
>Your argument is that the state is not a threat to a system
>designed to deprive the state of seigniorage, because the state will see that
>system as too important?
Well, if you look at governments from the point of youtube illuminati videos, then, yeah, I guess my position would seem a bit off.
But in that case no threat model or small blocks are gonna save you. As history shows, even if you go as deep as Dread Pirate Roberts, you will eventually be caught and prosecuted.
So start building SilkRoadCoin, which only works via TOR, has ASIC-resistant algorithm and 10 Kb blocks. Then you might have a tiny chance.
Most of us subscribed to a global "electronic cash system" and we intend to continue using Bitcoin for that.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 8:52 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-09-19 13:32 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-19 20:57 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-19 21:53 ` phm
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2015-09-19 20:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Voskuil; +Cc: Libbitcoin, Bitcoin development mailing list
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2605 bytes --]
>
> Your argument is that the state is not a threat to a system designed to
> deprive the state of seigniorage, because the state will see that system
> as too important?
>
And so we get to one of the hearts of the debate.
The axiom upon which you and NxtChg disagree is this: he/she believes
governments can crush Bitcoin if they want regardless of how decentralised
it is, and you don't.
If one believes governments have the power to end Bitcoin no matter what,
then the only true protection comes from popularity. Governments find it
hard to ban things that are wildly popular with their voters. This is the
Uber approach: grow fast, annoy governments, but be popular enough that
banning you is politically risky.
If you don't believe that governments can end Bitcoin because of
decentralisation, then the opposite conclusion is logical: growth can be
dangerous because stateless money will be inherently opposed by the state,
therefore if growth == less decentralisation, growth increases the risk of
state shutdown.
I don't think we have to choose between decentralisation and growth
actually - computers are just amazingly fast. But that's irrelevant here.
The point is, your disagreement is summed up by your statement:
> Bitcoin cannot be both decentralized and reliant on being, "too important
> to close". If it can be closed there is insufficient decentralization.
>
I believe this statement is wrong because governments can shut down Bitcoin
at any point regardless of its level of decentralisation. This is true
because:
- Most governments can easily spend enough money to do a 51% attack,
especially if they can compel chip fabs to cooperate for free. This attack
works regardless of how decentralised Bitcoin is.
- Any government can end Bitcoin usage in its territory by jailing
anyone who advertises acceptance/trading of bitcoins, or prices in BTC.
Because merchants *must* advertise in order to alert customers that
trades in BTC are possible, this is an attack which is unsolvable. If
ordinary people can find such merchants so can government agents.
It may appear that trade cannot be suppressed because merchants can all
become anonymous too, a la Silk Road. However, if use of Bitcoin is banned
then it becomes impossible to convert coins into local currency as that
requires cooperation of banks ..... making it useless for even anonymous
merchants. An outlaw currency is useless even to outlaws.
Because Bitcoin's existence ultimately relies on government cooperation and
acceptance, the best way to ensure its survival is growth. Lots of it.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 20:57 ` Mike Hearn
@ 2015-09-19 21:53 ` phm
2015-09-20 1:26 ` Dave Scotese
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: phm @ 2015-09-19 21:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> Governments find it hard to ban things that are wildly popular with
> their voters. This is the Uber approach: grow fast, annoy governments,
> but be popular enough that banning you is politically risky.
Governments do not find it hard to ban things that threaten their
authority, least of all their authority to control money, and they also
do not find it hard to ban things which are popular. I'm sure the
millions of people with felony drug charges for the possession of
marijuana, a plant, understand this better than you appear to. Also, in
the US, despite overwhelming resistance on a broad scale, legislation
continues to be presented which would violate the 2nd amendment right to
keep and bear arms.
Bitcoin does not enjoy nearly the popularity that marijuana and guns do,
and likely never may. But even if it did, the government can be relied
on to outlaw it once it understands the true extent to which Bitcoin can
undermine its ability to control stores of value. A mining network that
anyone can contribute to would enable Bitcoin to stay alive in spite of
this, much like torrents have enabled people to continue pirating music
regardless of how many websites have been taken down.
>
> If you don't believe that governments can end Bitcoin because of
> decentralisation, then the opposite conclusion is logical: growth can
> be dangerous because stateless money will be inherently opposed by the
> state, therefore if growth == less decentralisation, growth increases
> the risk of state shutdown.
I think there's a difference between natural growth and the kind of
growth that's being proposed by bank-backed start-ups and pro-censorship
entities.
>
> I don't think we have to choose between decentralisation and growth
> actually - computers are just amazingly fast. But that's irrelevant here.
>
> The point is, your disagreement is summed up by your statement:
>
>
> Bitcoin cannot be both decentralized and reliant on being,
> "too important to close". If it can be closed there is
> insufficient decentralization.
>
>
> I believe this statement is wrong because governments can shut down
> Bitcoin at any point regardless of its level of decentralisation. This
> is true because:
>
> * Most governments can easily spend enough money to do a 51% attack,
> especially if they can compel chip fabs to cooperate for free.
> This attack works regardless of how decentralised Bitcoin is.
>
> * Any government can end Bitcoin usage in its territory by jailing
> anyone who advertises acceptance/trading of bitcoins, or prices in
> BTC. Because merchants /must/ advertise in order to alert
> customers that trades in BTC are possible, this is an attack which
> is unsolvable. If ordinary people can find such merchants so can
> government agents.
>
> It may appear that trade cannot be suppressed because merchants can
> all become anonymous too, a la Silk Road. However, if use of Bitcoin
> is banned then it becomes impossible to convert coins into local
> currency as that requires cooperation of banks ..... making it useless
> for even anonymous merchants. An outlaw currency is useless even to
> outlaws.
A ban on Bitcoin would lead to a rise in p2p markets. The government is
an inefficient sinkhole at its very best and it has never successfully
eradicated anything.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 21:53 ` phm
@ 2015-09-20 1:26 ` Dave Scotese
2015-09-20 2:18 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-20 9:18 ` NxtChg
2015-09-20 9:25 ` Mike Hearn
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Dave Scotese @ 2015-09-20 1:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: P. H. Madore; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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phm got most of this, but...
On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 2:53 PM, phm via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>
> >
> > * Most governments can easily spend enough money to do a 51% attack,
> > especially if they can compel chip fabs to cooperate for free.
> > This attack works regardless of how decentralised Bitcoin is.
> >
> > * Any government can end Bitcoin usage in its territory by jailing
> > anyone who advertises acceptance/trading of bitcoins, or prices in
> > BTC. Because merchants /must/ advertise in order to alert
> > customers that trades in BTC are possible, this is an attack which
> > is unsolvable. If ordinary people can find such merchants so can
> > government agents.
> >
>
Pot is used as money, and they do jail people for it, but it doesn't have
the effect to which you refer. It has the opposite effect, partially
because it enriches suppliers.
The 51% attack is a good point, but they would be taking a huge risk.
Ideas don't die, just people. For example, they got Ross Ulbricht, not DPR.
Government is the group of people that does things that are not acceptable
if anyone else does them, and that is because people cheer for them when
they do those things, rather than pointing out that they are not
acceptable. The movie "The Deep Web" shows how bitcoin helps to turn this
misfortune around.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 1:26 ` Dave Scotese
@ 2015-09-20 2:18 ` Milly Bitcoin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-09-20 2:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
> Government is the group of people that does things ...
Governments (note the plural) are a collection of entities made up of
people that do all sorts of things both good and bad. Attaching your
political agenda to Bitcoin with the hopes people will agree with it
after using Bitcoin is not a viable plan to promote your agenda nor is
it a plan for mass adoption.
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 21:53 ` phm
2015-09-20 1:26 ` Dave Scotese
@ 2015-09-20 9:18 ` NxtChg
2015-09-20 9:25 ` Mike Hearn
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: NxtChg @ 2015-09-20 9:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: moonpunter, bitcoin-dev
>Bitcoin does not enjoy nearly the popularity that marijuana and guns do,
Marijuana is an individual activity. Precisely the problem with Bitcoin you envision, where each one of us could be easily jailed.
Guns are quite different: they have NRA and judging by how successful it is at fending _any_ sort of gun control laws, it can very effectively counter-balance the government.
If Bitcoin had it's own NBitA, it would be in a much better position to defend itself than a bunch of individual users.
>A mining network that anyone can contribute to would enable Bitcoin to stay alive in spite of this
Again. Start building an alt-coin with ASIC-resistant algorithm then, it's much more important than the small blocks in your model.
And it must also have other features to support your fight: integrated darkcoin-style anonymity, only TOR as the protocol, etc.
Trying to use Bitcoin, which is overly-exposed, for this kind of fight is a pretty dumb idea.
You won't have the benefits of a small attack surface and you won't have the benefits of strength - the most vulnerable position.
Not to mention that many people simply don't share your vision of Bitcoin as a marginalized outlawed coin somewhere in the depths of TOR.
Looking at how enthusiastically people in smallblockistan promote the most vulnerable position, I'd say they are all agents of USG.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-19 21:53 ` phm
2015-09-20 1:26 ` Dave Scotese
2015-09-20 9:18 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-20 9:25 ` Mike Hearn
2015-09-20 15:43 ` Mark Friedenbach
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2015-09-20 9:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: moonpunter; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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>
> Also, in the US, despite overwhelming resistance on a broad scale,
> legislation continues to be presented which would violate the 2nd amendment
> right to keep and bear arms.
And yet the proposed legislation goes nowhere, and the USA continues to
stand alone in having the first world's weakest gun control laws.
You are just supporting my point with this example. Obama would like to
restrict guns, but can't, because they are too popular (in the USA).
The comparison to BitTorrent is likewise weak: governments hardly care
about piracy. They care enough to pass laws occasionally, but not enough to
put serious effort into enforcement. Wake me up when the USA establishes a
Copyright Enforcement Administration with the same budget and powers as the
DEA.
Internet based black markets exist only because governments tolerate them
(for now). A ban on Tor, Bitcoin or both would send them back to the
pre-2011 state where they were virtually non-existent. Governments tolerate
this sort of abuse only because they believe, I think correctly, that
Bitcoin can have great benefits for their ordinary voters and for now are
willing to let the tech industry experiment.
But for that state of affairs to continue, the benefits must actually
appear. That requires growth.
I think there's a difference between natural growth and the kind of growth
> that's being proposed by bank-backed start-ups and pro-censorship entities.
>
What difference? Are you saying the people who come to Bitcoin because of a
startup are somehow less "natural" than other users?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 9:25 ` Mike Hearn
@ 2015-09-20 15:43 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-09-20 16:21 ` NxtChg
2015-09-21 10:30 ` Mike Hearn
0 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2015-09-20 15:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mike Hearn; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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Replying to this specific email only because it is the most recent in my
mail client.
Does this conversation have to happen on-list? It seems to have wandered
incredibly far off-topic.
On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 5:25 AM, Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Also, in the US, despite overwhelming resistance on a broad scale,
>> legislation continues to be presented which would violate the 2nd amendment
>> right to keep and bear arms.
>
>
> And yet the proposed legislation goes nowhere, and the USA continues to
> stand alone in having the first world's weakest gun control laws.
>
> You are just supporting my point with this example. Obama would like to
> restrict guns, but can't, because they are too popular (in the USA).
>
> The comparison to BitTorrent is likewise weak: governments hardly care
> about piracy. They care enough to pass laws occasionally, but not enough to
> put serious effort into enforcement. Wake me up when the USA establishes a
> Copyright Enforcement Administration with the same budget and powers as the
> DEA.
>
> Internet based black markets exist only because governments tolerate them
> (for now). A ban on Tor, Bitcoin or both would send them back to the
> pre-2011 state where they were virtually non-existent. Governments tolerate
> this sort of abuse only because they believe, I think correctly, that
> Bitcoin can have great benefits for their ordinary voters and for now are
> willing to let the tech industry experiment.
>
> But for that state of affairs to continue, the benefits must actually
> appear. That requires growth.
>
> I think there's a difference between natural growth and the kind of growth
>> that's being proposed by bank-backed start-ups and pro-censorship entities.
>>
>
> What difference? Are you saying the people who come to Bitcoin because of
> a startup are somehow less "natural" than other users?
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 15:43 ` Mark Friedenbach
@ 2015-09-20 16:21 ` NxtChg
2015-09-20 16:34 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-21 10:30 ` Mike Hearn
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: NxtChg @ 2015-09-20 16:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mark Friedenbach, Mike Hearn; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
>Does this conversation have to happen on-list? It seems to have wandered incredibly far off-topic.
How is this off-topic? This a fundamental decision, from which all the other development decisions follow.
And apparently it's far from settled, with one part pulling in the direction of HideCoin and the other in the direction of PopCoin.
The block limit debate is a direct consequence of this fundamental disagreement.
Until this is settled, Bitcoin has no clear direction and developers cannot make effective decisions: it's hard to get anywhere when you don't know where you're going.
Even though this disagreement probably won't be resolved on this list, it's helpful to have this discussion for people to understand what the root problem is.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 16:21 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-20 16:34 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-20 20:23 ` Steven Pine
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-09-20 16:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
> Until this is settled, Bitcoin has no clear direction and developers cannot make effective decisions:
How exactly do things set "settled" in this environment?
People looking at Bitcoin think a small group of developers and miners
"control" these decisions. Not sure if "control" is the right word but
that is the perception.
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 16:34 ` Milly Bitcoin
@ 2015-09-20 20:23 ` Steven Pine
2015-09-20 20:54 ` Milly Bitcoin
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Steven Pine @ 2015-09-20 20:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Milly Bitcoin; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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It's amazing how foolish some people are to continue trusting governments
especially in light of recent history: a seemingly endless, Orwellian 'war
on terror', multiple regional conflicts often justified by fake evidence,
wholesale disregard of law and basic human covenants such as do not
torture, ubiquitous and secret global surveillance.
Anyone who doesn't consider governments the proper threat model is either a
shill or an idiot.
On Sep 20, 2015 12:34 PM, "Milly Bitcoin via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Until this is settled, Bitcoin has no clear direction and developers
>> cannot make effective decisions:
>>
>
> How exactly do things set "settled" in this environment?
>
> People looking at Bitcoin think a small group of developers and miners
> "control" these decisions. Not sure if "control" is the right word but
> that is the perception.
>
> Russ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 20:23 ` Steven Pine
@ 2015-09-20 20:54 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-20 21:33 ` s7r
2015-09-20 21:10 ` NxtChg
2015-09-20 21:16 ` Eric Lombrozo
2 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-09-20 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
Your reply has nothing to do with my comment. It looks like you just go
around posting wing nut stuff without regard to what is being discussed.
A proper threat model considers all possible threats and looks at the
probability of each.
Obviously from your comment you have no experience in threat models and
limited education in general.
Russ
On 9/20/2015 4:23 PM, Steven Pine wrote:
> It's amazing how foolish some people are to continue trusting
> governments especially in light of recent history: a seemingly endless,
> Orwellian 'war on terror', multiple regional conflicts often justified
> by fake evidence, wholesale disregard of law and basic human covenants
> such as do not torture, ubiquitous and secret global surveillance.
>
> Anyone who doesn't consider governments the proper threat model is
> either a shill or an idiot.
>
> On Sep 20, 2015 12:34 PM, "Milly Bitcoin via bitcoin-dev"
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
> Until this is settled, Bitcoin has no clear direction and
> developers cannot make effective decisions:
>
>
> How exactly do things set "settled" in this environment?
>
> People looking at Bitcoin think a small group of developers and
> miners "control" these decisions. Not sure if "control" is the
> right word but that is the perception.
>
> Russ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 20:54 ` Milly Bitcoin
@ 2015-09-20 21:33 ` s7r
2015-09-20 21:45 ` Eric Lombrozo
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: s7r @ 2015-09-20 21:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
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Hash: SHA256
Nobody said anything about trusting the governments in the way such as
you describe.
No matter how much you want to disagree here, Mike Hearn is right on
some aspects. He only said that bitcoin needs to have larger user
base, more use cases, making it more popular and less likely to be
banned by the governments because of political reasons. He did not say
"let's trust the governments and centralize bitcoin, give them the
possibility to trace/seize/control people's bitcoins, own all the full
nodes or hashing power" or anything like this. So, I think he wants to
suggest "be smart and Play by the rules, follow your interest". The
general threat model for which we want to scale is: larger user base
(not necessarily by increasing the blocksize - just increase the
transactions per second using the best way from all points of view),
more use cases for simple people who only do basic stuff, more
popularity but all these without the possibility for some actor to
control more than he should (like a government agency). For example,
just a summary (among many others): it will always be impossible to
freeze anyone's coins, or take them without the party's consent, or
make it mandatory to tie bitcoin addresses / wallets to real world
identities.
If we think governments are the threat, it's bad. This is because they
can make bitcoin illegal, and no matter what you or I think, there
will _always_ be more people who follow the laws (even the immoral
ones) than people who don't. If it's illegal / banned in relevant
places/countries/continents, bitcoin will be useless. What good will
it be if you can only use it anonymously in a dark-web via Tor, and
you can't tell anyone you do it and can't exchange it to fiat or vice
versa? Bitcoin has to be legit, have normal use cases and be as
popular as possible. Don't think that if tomorrow some government bans
bitcoin there will be a revolution supporting freedom and free speech
and who had this terrible idea will be jailed forever - this will not
happen. What will happen is that users under that jurisdiction will
not use bitcoin any more, merchants from there will not accept bitcoin
any more and exchangers from there will disappear. If some of them
will remain to continue doing it as an outlaw, I assume their number
will be insignificant anyway. If we move towards crypto-anarchy where
we want to say "f*** the laws, f*** the government, f*** everything",
we already lost and this should not be the consensus here under any
circumstances. We, a few computer experts on this mail list using
bitcoin is not what it will make it strong. What will make it strong
is millions of human beings from all social classes and with various
occupations using it for whatever boring reason each one might have.
+1: An outlaw currency is useless even to outlaws.
> On 9/20/2015 4:23 PM, Steven Pine wrote:
>> It's amazing how foolish some people are to continue trusting
>> governments especially in light of recent history: a seemingly
>> endless, Orwellian 'war on terror', multiple regional conflicts
>> often justified by fake evidence, wholesale disregard of law and
>> basic human covenants such as do not torture, ubiquitous and
>> secret global surveillance.
>>
>> Anyone who doesn't consider governments the proper threat model
>> is either a shill or an idiot.
>>
>> On Sep 20, 2015 12:34 PM, "Milly Bitcoin via bitcoin-dev"
>> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Until this is settled, Bitcoin has no clear direction and
>> developers cannot make effective decisions:
>>
>>
>> How exactly do things set "settled" in this environment?
>>
>> People looking at Bitcoin think a small group of developers and
>> miners "control" these decisions. Not sure if "control" is the
>> right word but that is the perception.
>>
>> Russ
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 21:33 ` s7r
@ 2015-09-20 21:45 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-20 22:02 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-21 8:48 ` NxtChg
0 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-09-20 21:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: s7r, bitcoin-dev
------ Original Message ------
From: "s7r via bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
To: bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
Sent: 9/20/2015 2:33:38 PM
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
>The general threat model for which we want to scale is: larger user
>base
>(not necessarily by increasing the blocksize - just increase the
>transactions per second using the best way from all points of view),
>more use cases for simple people who only do basic stuff, more
>popularity but all these without the possibility for some actor to
>control more than he should (like a government agency).
Larger user base won't necessarily protect against governments if we
still have chokepoints they can go after. Given that as a currency
Bitcoin currently represents a negligible portion of the world's
economy, even growing the user base by some small factor is at best a
token gesture in our fight against governmental threats. If governments
successfully take down critical pieces of our network infrastructure,
Bitcoin will fail and most people will continue doing business as usual
(using fiat currency), most of them never even noticing anything
noteworthy happened at all.
What we really need to grow is the number of nodes on the network that
participate in its basic infrastructure - namely: miners, validators,
etc...and the more centralized these activities become, the easier it
will be for governments to clamp down.
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 21:45 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-09-20 22:02 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-20 22:21 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-21 8:48 ` NxtChg
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-09-20 22:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
> Larger user base won't necessarily protect against governments if we
> still have chokepoints they can go after.
Bitcoin will always have chokepoints governments can go after. Hackers
already targeted routers to divert mining traffic awhile back. Bitcoin
traffic is easily seen and blocked by ISP's. It has already been
pointed out that laws against merchants and exchanges cannot be defended
against any other way than to have many people use the system. (As a
developer you, of course, did not mention the threat of having a tiny
number of developers who have significant influence over Bitcoin. It
always amazes me the endless discussion over miners centralization and
almost zero discussion of developer decentralization.)
Increasing the nodes by a factor of 2 or 3 or keeping the block size
small to increase the diversity of miners by a few percent will have
zero effect if those other government threats were to actually happen.
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 22:02 ` Milly Bitcoin
@ 2015-09-20 22:21 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-20 22:51 ` Milly Bitcoin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-09-20 22:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Milly Bitcoin, bitcoin-dev
------ Original Message ------
From: "Milly Bitcoin via bitcoin-dev"
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
To: bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
Sent: 9/20/2015 3:02:32 PM
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
>>Larger user base won't necessarily protect against governments if we
>>still have chokepoints they can go after.
>
>
>Bitcoin will always have chokepoints governments can go after. Hackers
>already targeted routers to divert mining traffic awhile back. Bitcoin
>traffic is easily seen and blocked by ISP's. It has already been
>pointed out that laws against merchants and exchanges cannot be
>defended against any other way than to have many people use the system.
Almost none of these merchants depend on Bitcoin in any significant way
for revenue...and that's likely to remain the case for a good while.
Merchants that have chosen to accept Bitcoin are typically using a
handful of payment processors, again...chokepoints. And almost none of
them are contributing any network resources back to Bitcoin.
Exchanges are indeed serious chokepoints. But increasing the number of
users will probably have relatively little effect on this unless we also
increase the number of exchanges and decentralize the exchanges. If all
we had to do is increase the number of users, the same argument could be
used to claim that banks would be less susceptible to governmental
crackdowns if they just had more account holders.
Exchange decentralization is indeed another thing we must work towards -
but that's probably beyond the scope of the more pressing issue which is
building consensus in Bitcoin development.
>(As a developer you, of course, did not mention the threat of having a
>tiny number of developers who have significant influence over Bitcoin.
>It always amazes me the endless discussion over miners centralization
>and almost zero discussion of developer decentralization.)
I've pointed out this weakness of Bitcoin *numerous* times. That I
failed to mention it here does not mean it hasn't been discussed
elsewhere. Some of us have also been actively working towards developing
a more modular, layered architecture and better implementations that
will afford greater decentralization in software development with less
need for critical code reviews, less pushback from downstream developers
who must continuously rebase, a better process for building consensus in
the community, and simpler app migration.
>
>
>Increasing the nodes by a factor of 2 or 3 or keeping the block size
>small to increase the diversity of miners by a few percent will have
>zero effect if those other government threats were to actually happen.
>
We need to increase the basic infrastructure nodes by a factor much
larger than 2 or 3...more like 100 or 1000...and it's entirely doable
with properly aligned incentives.
>Russ
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>bitcoin-dev mailing list
>bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 22:21 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-09-20 22:51 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-20 23:11 ` Eric Lombrozo
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-09-20 22:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
>Some of us have also been actively working towards developing
> a more modular, layered architecture and better implementations that
> will afford greater decentralization in software development with less
> need for critical code reviews, less pushback from downstream developers
> who must continuously rebase, a better process for building consensus in
> the community, and simpler app migration.
It sounds more efficient but it is not clear to me that it would change
the level of centralization of how the final decisions are made.
One threat to Bintcoin involves incentive for companies to hire
developers. The only reason is to change (or not change) Bitcoin Core
so it is beneficial to their interests. I am not sure anything can be
done about that risk but it needs to be understood and considered and
not just ignored.
> We need to increase the basic infrastructure nodes by a factor much
> larger than 2 or 3...more like 100 or 1000...and it's entirely doable
> with properly aligned incentives.
I assume that would mean fees that hike transaction fees and make
Bitcoin more expensive?
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 22:51 ` Milly Bitcoin
@ 2015-09-20 23:11 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-21 0:11 ` Dave Scotese
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-09-20 23:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Milly Bitcoin, bitcoin-dev
------ Original Message ------
From: "Milly Bitcoin via bitcoin-dev"
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
To: bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
Sent: 9/20/2015 3:51:36 PM
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
>>Some of us have also been actively working towards developing
>>a more modular, layered architecture and better implementations that
>>will afford greater decentralization in software development with less
>>need for critical code reviews, less pushback from downstream
>>developers
>>who must continuously rebase, a better process for building consensus
>>in
>>the community, and simpler app migration.
>
>It sounds more efficient but it is not clear to me that it would change
>the level of centralization of how the final decisions are made.
>
>One threat to Bintcoin involves incentive for companies to hire
>developers. The only reason is to change (or not change) Bitcoin Core
>so it is beneficial to their interests. I am not sure anything can be
>done about that risk but it needs to be understood and considered and
>not just ignored.
Core development process and decentralized dev/community consensus
building (in particular for consensus-critical changes) is at the top of
my priorities as issues right now...and one that I'd love to discuss
more in depth...but it probably deserves its own thread. The political
angle seems very difficult right now while the systems architecture
stuff seems a bit more tractable...and it seems that without
architectural changes it will be extremely hard to decentralize
development and easily bring large numbers of new developers in.
>
>>We need to increase the basic infrastructure nodes by a factor much
>>larger than 2 or 3...more like 100 or 1000...and it's entirely doable
>>with properly aligned incentives.
>
>I assume that would mean fees that hike transaction fees and make
>Bitcoin more expensive?
>
Not necessarily. Right now we already pay around 3,600 bitcoins a day in
inflationary subsidies, very little of which goes to the majority of
critical infrastructure nodes and their operators. This is a problem
with the current protocol design, one we'll hopefully be able to fix.
Having more core infrastructure nodes doesn't need to raise costs per
transaction - but it will most likely require abandoning the current
approach of having three basic node classes: miners (which tend towards
centralized pools), full nodes (which must validate each of everyone's
transaction and in return get paid nothing), and thin clients (which
essentially amount to parasitic nodes that do not contribute any
resources back to the network and must be subsidized).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 23:11 ` Eric Lombrozo
@ 2015-09-21 0:11 ` Dave Scotese
2015-09-21 5:04 ` Corey Haddad
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Dave Scotese @ 2015-09-21 0:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1952 bytes --]
Mike wrote:
... Obama would like to restrict guns, but can't, because they are too
popular (in the USA).
... Governments tolerate this sort of abuse [black markets] only because
they believe, I think correctly, that Bitcoin can have great benefits for
their ordinary voters and for now are willing to let the tech industry
experiment.
Those two reasons must be recognized for their differences. What does it
mean that something is "too popular" if the ultimate goal of government is
"great benefits for their ordinary voters"? It means the government
assumes that some things are bad for people even though they are popular.
Crystal meth and heroin come to mind. This is a natural concern of all
decent parents for their children, and the reason that cultures for
millennia have had rites of passage, wherein the child takes on the
responsibility of determining for him or her self whether or not a popular
thing provides great benefits. That responsibility is the birthright of
every human being. Why is there an institution that usurps it? How do the
people within that institution benefit from being part of it?
Some history to study and answer these questions includes:
- The origination of public schooling as motivated by Johann Fichte's
public letters to his king in response to Prussia's loss to Napolean at
Jena.
- Franz Oppenheimer's book, The State, tracing the origination of the
idea of a state, or group of people who make up and enforce laws.
- Carroll Quigley's history book, Tragedy and Hope.
- Larken Rose's book, Kicking the Dragon.
- The Republic, by Plato, but only once you understand those other books.
- If you want a shortcut, John Taylor Gatto did a five-hour interview
which is now titled "The Ultimate History Lesson with John Taylor Gatto."
It is heavily sourced by its producer in case anyone wants to verify the
information he provides.
I'm "notplato" for a reason.
notplato
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-21 0:11 ` Dave Scotese
@ 2015-09-21 5:04 ` Corey Haddad
2015-09-21 11:45 ` Milly Bitcoin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Corey Haddad @ 2015-09-21 5:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Dave Scotese; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3117 bytes --]
If it turns out that the blocksize divide is hinging on differing developer
views on the nature of the threat posed by governments, perhaps it would be
better to defer to people who specialize in that area. There are plenty of
them operating in the Bitcoin space. I am familiar with some of the United
States based policy people, such as Jerry Brito, Alex Fowler, Constance
Choi, Jim Harper, Patrick Murck, etc.. If they are not sure how to frame
their ideas as they relate to this debate, maybe the devs could pose some
questions for them to answer. If the bitcoin policy people are not of
help, maybe we should turn to some political philosophers or something.
The main idea here is that if this is a politics question, please consider
you may be outside your area of expertise.
On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Dave Scotese via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Mike wrote:
> ... Obama would like to restrict guns, but can't, because they are too
> popular (in the USA).
> ... Governments tolerate this sort of abuse [black markets] only because
> they believe, I think correctly, that Bitcoin can have great benefits for
> their ordinary voters and for now are willing to let the tech industry
> experiment.
>
> Those two reasons must be recognized for their differences. What does it
> mean that something is "too popular" if the ultimate goal of government is
> "great benefits for their ordinary voters"? It means the government
> assumes that some things are bad for people even though they are popular.
> Crystal meth and heroin come to mind. This is a natural concern of all
> decent parents for their children, and the reason that cultures for
> millennia have had rites of passage, wherein the child takes on the
> responsibility of determining for him or her self whether or not a popular
> thing provides great benefits. That responsibility is the birthright of
> every human being. Why is there an institution that usurps it? How do the
> people within that institution benefit from being part of it?
>
> Some history to study and answer these questions includes:
>
> - The origination of public schooling as motivated by Johann Fichte's
> public letters to his king in response to Prussia's loss to Napolean at
> Jena.
> - Franz Oppenheimer's book, The State, tracing the origination of the
> idea of a state, or group of people who make up and enforce laws.
> - Carroll Quigley's history book, Tragedy and Hope.
> - Larken Rose's book, Kicking the Dragon.
> - The Republic, by Plato, but only once you understand those other
> books.
> - If you want a shortcut, John Taylor Gatto did a five-hour interview
> which is now titled "The Ultimate History Lesson with John Taylor Gatto."
> It is heavily sourced by its producer in case anyone wants to verify the
> information he provides.
>
> I'm "notplato" for a reason.
>
> notplato
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-21 5:04 ` Corey Haddad
@ 2015-09-21 11:45 ` Milly Bitcoin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-09-21 11:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
On 9/21/2015 1:04 AM, Corey Haddad via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> If it turns out that the blocksize divide is hinging on differing
> developer views on the nature of the threat posed by governments,
> perhaps it would be better to defer to people who specialize in that
> area. ...
...
> The main idea here is that if this is a politics question, please
> consider you may be outside your area of expertise.
That is a great suggestion. Jerry Brito is the number one guy to go to
for this information. You will find that many early Bitcoiners are
completely clueless as to the motivations of regulators. However, you
still have the problem that some influential developers know Bitcoin but
otherwise are completely ignorant. They will go around claiming
everyone who discusses regulation is a "statist" and so forth. Some
people on this list actually claimed I am "statist" simply by pointing
out that governments do both good and bad things and that most people
trust and depend on governments to a certain extent. That is simply a
fact, it does not support any agenda.
Another example are the developers who are going around claiming a
stress test is a criminal action against those running nodes. Such a
claim brings all kinds of complicated legal questions about the
liability of people running nodes. Instead of contacting someone who
researched the issue (such as Peter Šurda who ended up posting several
sensible replies) the developer posted some hyperbolic article on Reddit
which did nothing but promote misinformation. On top of that it makes
Bitcoiners look totally ridiculous. One day they claim Bitcoin will
collapse all these government institutions and the next day they want
those same government institutions to arrest people for overflowing
their memory pool.
One final issue about the conference ... the developers should not be
accepting advertisers engaged in nefarious activities. In particular
BicoinTalk was accepted as an advertiser. It is well known that site
has promoted fake banks where many users lost money
(CoinLeders/Inputs.io), illegal investments schemes where,any people
lost funds (BLBSE) and whole host of questionable, illegal, immoral, and
unethical activities. Just because the guy who runs the site wrote a
block explorer that does not mean the developers should blindly promote
a highly questionable web site that damages Bitcoin's reputation. The
people running these events need to start acting responsibly.
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 21:45 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-09-20 22:02 ` Milly Bitcoin
@ 2015-09-21 8:48 ` NxtChg
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: NxtChg @ 2015-09-21 8:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eric Lombrozo, s7r, bitcoin-dev
>Larger user base won't necessarily protect against governments if
>we still have chokepoints they can go after.
This is the critical confusion about Bitcoin decentralization, which leads to this whole recent mess of shouting at each other.
Decentralization is _not_ a way to withstand an attack, if the government "goes after you".
Many people got this idea drilled into their heads in the previous years, that Bitcoin is a "movement" to fight governments, and decentralization is its main weapon.
They confuse Bitcoin and Anonymous.
>What we really need to grow is the number of nodes on the network
>that participate in its basic infrastructure - namely: miners, validators, etc...
Absolutely. Nobody argues that we shouldn't care about decentralization.
But who's gonna pay for all this? What are the incentives?
We need Bitcoin to get much more popular for this to happen.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 20:23 ` Steven Pine
2015-09-20 20:54 ` Milly Bitcoin
@ 2015-09-20 21:10 ` NxtChg
2015-09-20 21:13 ` Steven Pine
2015-09-20 21:24 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-20 21:16 ` Eric Lombrozo
2 siblings, 2 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: NxtChg @ 2015-09-20 21:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Steven Pine; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
>Anyone who doesn't consider governments the proper threat model is either a shill or an idiot.
You meant to say "threat". This is what threat model is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model
Nobody here discounts governments as a threat.
As to the "proper threat model", you can't construct one since your attacker is essentially unbounded.
For example, any large government could easily obtain 51% of hash power and then only accept transactions from "certified services".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 21:10 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-20 21:13 ` Steven Pine
2015-09-20 21:34 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-20 21:24 ` Milly Bitcoin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 46+ messages in thread
From: Steven Pine @ 2015-09-20 21:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: NxtChg; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 883 bytes --]
That's a simple fallacy, historically governments even hegemons, fail, in
fact it would be odd to assert that a government will not fail, therefore
ascribing godlike and limitless powers to a government is again the view of
either a shill or someone untutored in history.
On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 5:10 PM, NxtChg <nxtchg@hush•com> wrote:
>
> >Anyone who doesn't consider governments the proper threat model is either
> a shill or an idiot.
>
> You meant to say "threat". This is what threat model is:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model
>
> Nobody here discounts governments as a threat.
>
> As to the "proper threat model", you can't construct one since your
> attacker is essentially unbounded.
>
> For example, any large government could easily obtain 51% of hash power
> and then only accept transactions from "certified services".
>
>
--
Steven Pine
(510) 517-7075
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 21:13 ` Steven Pine
@ 2015-09-20 21:34 ` Milly Bitcoin
0 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-09-20 21:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
> therefore ascribing godlike and limitless powers to a government is
> again the view of either a shill or someone untutored in history.
Since nobody ever ascribed "godlike and limitless powers to a
government" on this list your comment has no bearing on anything
discussed here. I am sure the whole world, except for a few
underemployed gamers who discovered Bitcoin, are all untutored in history.
As for this thread, the question was how/when is a Bitcoin development
issue considered "settled?"
Russ
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 21:10 ` NxtChg
2015-09-20 21:13 ` Steven Pine
@ 2015-09-20 21:24 ` Milly Bitcoin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Milly Bitcoin @ 2015-09-20 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
Threat models can be developed for things like threats from governments.
The idea in developing a model is to put in the context of other
possible threats. For example, someone with a few million to burn can
easily crash the exchange rate or buy a couple core developers much
easier and cheaper than doing a 51% attack. These attacks can be done
by governments and non-governments alike. The people who consider
threats from government and think everyone associated with Bitcoin is
somehow "pure" are irrational cultists who have no business discussing
threat models in the first place.
Russ
On 9/20/2015 5:10 PM, NxtChg via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>
>> Anyone who doesn't consider governments the proper threat model is either a shill or an idiot.
>
> You meant to say "threat". This is what threat model is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threat_model
>
> Nobody here discounts governments as a threat.
>
> As to the "proper threat model", you can't construct one since your attacker is essentially unbounded.
>
> For example, any large government could easily obtain 51% of hash power and then only accept transactions from "certified services".
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 20:23 ` Steven Pine
2015-09-20 20:54 ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-09-20 21:10 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-20 21:16 ` Eric Lombrozo
2 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Eric Lombrozo @ 2015-09-20 21:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Steven Pine, Milly Bitcoin; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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Steven,
You make a decent point...but please try to keep the discourse civil.
It's already hard enough trying to figure this stuff out without fanning
more flames.
------ Original Message ------
From: "Steven Pine via bitcoin-dev"
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
To: "Milly Bitcoin" <milly@bitcoins•info>
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
Sent: 9/20/2015 1:23:28 PM
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
>It's amazing how foolish some people are to continue trusting
>governments especially in light of recent history: a seemingly endless,
>Orwellian 'war on terror', multiple regional conflicts often justified
>by fake evidence, wholesale disregard of law and basic human covenants
>such as do not torture, ubiquitous and secret global surveillance.
>
>Anyone who doesn't consider governments the proper threat model is
>either a shill or an idiot.
>
>On Sep 20, 2015 12:34 PM, "Milly Bitcoin via bitcoin-dev"
><bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>Until this is settled, Bitcoin has no clear direction and developers
>>>cannot make effective decisions:
>>
>>How exactly do things set "settled" in this environment?
>>
>>People looking at Bitcoin think a small group of developers and miners
>>"control" these decisions. Not sure if "control" is the right word
>>but that is the perception.
>>
>>Russ
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report
2015-09-20 15:43 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-09-20 16:21 ` NxtChg
@ 2015-09-21 10:30 ` Mike Hearn
1 sibling, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Mike Hearn @ 2015-09-21 10:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mark Friedenbach; +Cc: bitcoin-dev
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>
> Does this conversation have to happen on-list? It seems to have wandered
> incredibly far off-topic.
>
I understand, it does seem off topic. But ..... what was the topic again?
All Jeff's mail and the followups seem to say is there was a meeting where
some people (unnamed) agreed to do something (unspecified) if the metric
used is modified (which doesn't change the fundamental issues).
So there isn't really much on-topic to discuss. If/when Wladimir starts a
thread, with a BIP, and says "this is how it's gonna be in Bitcoin Core",
then there will be things to discuss.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* [bitcoin-dev] Improving Blocksize Communication Through Markets
2015-09-18 5:55 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-09-18 17:10 ` Dave Scotese
2015-09-18 20:06 ` Matt Corallo
@ 2015-09-18 22:15 ` Paul Sztorc
2015-09-20 11:41 ` Isidor Zeuner
3 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Paul Sztorc @ 2015-09-18 22:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin development mailing list
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Dear List,
1. Are you sick of hearing about THE BLOCKSIZE?
2. Do you feel that long-settled blocksize issues are coming up again
and again, resulting in duplicated work and communications burnout?
3. Do you feel that, while scalability is important and all, people
should just shut up about it already so that you can talk about X
Feature that you actually spent your time on?
4. Do you ever stop and think: How much *money* was spent for everyone
to travel to Montreal, stay at their hotels, and to rent the conference
venue and broadcasting accommodations? Shouldn't there be a way of just
*purchasing* the information we wanted more directly?
5. Do you feel that the inherent subjectivity of the conversation
encourages “political maneuvers” such as character assassination,
reduction of complex issues to minimal (two) unrepresentative “parties”,
and harassment / threats of violence (for the “greater good”)?
As I presented at the Montreal Conference, there is a way to
substantially improve the discussion. Would you believe that Hal Finney
himself advocated it just seven short years ago?
I happen to know it back-to-front, and the (simple) pieces are already
coded into my own more-complex project Truthcoin.
You could wait for me to hack the pieces together myself (which might
take a long time), or you, a competent/fast C++ developer familiar with
Bitcoin and/or Sidechain-Elements, could talk to me for 30 minutes, and
(depending on your skill level) bang it out in, probably, one weekend.
More details are on the project page ( http://bitcoinblocksize.com/ ),
some technical details are in the Github README.
I have also created a Slack:
https://blocksize-markets.slack.com/messages/general/
Sincerely,
Paul
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Improving Blocksize Communication Through Markets
2015-09-18 5:55 ` Mark Friedenbach
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2015-09-18 22:15 ` [bitcoin-dev] Improving Blocksize Communication Through Markets Paul Sztorc
@ 2015-09-20 11:41 ` Isidor Zeuner
3 siblings, 0 replies; 46+ messages in thread
From: Isidor Zeuner @ 2015-09-20 11:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev
Hi there,
replies in-line:
[...]
> 4. Do you ever stop and think: How much *money* was spent for everyone
> to travel to Montreal, stay at their hotels, and to rent the conference
> venue and broadcasting accommodations?
Not to mention that trying to solve a global issue with a conference
local to Montreal is a good example for _centralizing_ Bitcoin...
[...]
> More details are on the project page ( http://bitcoinblocksize.com/ ),
> some technical details are in the Github README.
>
I agree that letting the market decide is the way to go. But I
don't understand why we would want to have yet another
(side-)chain because of that. The market can already decide at the
point where _every_ Bitcoin user starts to discriminate the Bitcoins
he accepts between the client versions of the blocks where the
Bitcoins come from (and the corresponding BIPs where the version
numbers relate to). If a miner decides to follow a particular block
size policy against the will of the community, the market could
quickly rectify it when the miner realizes that no one accepts the
resulting coins anymore, leading to financial loss for the miner.
Best regards,
Isidor
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 46+ messages in thread