Re: [bitcoin-dev] Lightning Network's effect on miner fees

From: Daniel Newton <djpnewton@gmail•com>
To: s7r@sky-ip•org
Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Lightning Network's effect on miner fees
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 12:42:31 +1300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAOUBo+-7hbaJ9YMG6-WfB-=+6+9mn8U_vjQYqfNf6NwTA0p2yw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <561ED92C.2090203@sky-ip.org>

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You could make the same argument about changetip, coinbase, bitstamp or any
other entity that operates off chain transactions.

1) There is probably no way of blocking them or enforcing fee collection
from entities that operate off chain transactions
2) They all have to settle on chain eventually

On Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 11:37 AM, s7r via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

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> On 10/14/2015 6:19 PM, Paul Sztorc wrote:
> > LN transactions are a substitute good for on-chain transactions.
> >
> > Therefore, demand for on-chain transactions will decrease as a
> > result of LN, meaning that fees will be lower than they would
> > otherwise be.
> >
> > However, the two are also perfect compliments, as LN transactions
> > cannot take place at all without periodic on-chain transactions.
> >
> > The demand for *all* Bitcoin transactions (LN and otherwise) is
> > itself a function of innumerable factors, one of which is the
> > question "Which form of money [Bitcoin or not-Bitcoin] do I think
> > my trading partners will be using?". By supporting a higher rate of
> > (higher-quality) Bitcoin transactions, the net result is highly
> > uncertain, but will probably be that LN actually increases trading
> > fees.
>
> Probably yes. But probably no. Having less hashing power is not good,
> and it's unrelated to scalability and decentralization, it's related
> to security. Of course we could argue that the hashing power is not
> super decentralized at this moment but it's unrelated to the topic.
>
> I'd rather have less decentralized big amount of hashing power as
> opposite to less hashing power.
>
> One theory, very close to yours, is that if Bitcoin transactions
> demand grows so high that we need the lightning network, there should
> be plenty of on chain transactions for miners to collect fees from.
>
> I haven't yet seen the incentives of everyone involved in lightning
> network (payment channel end points, hub operators, miners, etc.) but
> would it make sense to enforce a % of the fees collected by on payment
> hubs to be spent as miner fees, regardless if the transactions from
> that hub go on the main chain or not?
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