From: Alex Morcos <morcos@gmail•com>
To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io>
Cc: bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 12:15:30 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAPWm=eWW25cL+F6NJTuQrmy_U2GNSpNEY6dn0CwfgkcO=RQyzw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <532327DD.7030005@monetize.io>
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I think Mark makes some good arguments.
I realize this would only add to the confusion, but...
What if we did relabel 100 satoshis to be some new kind of unit ("bit" or
whatever else), with a proper 3 letter code, and then from a user
standpoint, where people are using mBTC, they could switch to using Kbits
(ok thats obviously bad, but you get the idea) at the same nominal price.
But accounting backends and so forth would operate in the "bit" base unit
with 2 decimals of precision.
On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize•io> wrote:
> A cup of coffee in Tokyo costs about 55 yen. You see similar magnitude
> numbers in both Chinas, Thailand, and other economically important East
> Asian countries. Expect to pay hundreds of rupees in India, or thousands
> of rupees in Indonesia.
>
> This concept that money should have low, single digits for everyday
> prices is not just Western-centric, it's English-centric. An expresso in
> Rome would have cost you a few (tens of?) thousand lira in recent
> memory. It was pegging of the Euro to the U.S. dollar that brought
> European states in line with the English-speaking world (who themselves
> trace lineage to the pound sterling).
>
> No, there is no culturally-neutral common standards for currency and
> pricing. But there are ill-advised, ill-informed "standards" in
> accounting software that we nevertheless must live with. These software
> packages do not handle more than two decimal places gracefully. That
> gives technical justifications for moving to either uBTC or accounting
> in Satoshis directly. An argument for uBTC is that it retains alignment
> with the existing kBTC/BTC/mBTC/uBTC conventions.
>
> However another limitation of these accounting software practices is
> that they do not always handle SI notation very well, particularly
> sub-unit prefixes. By relabeling uBTC to be a new three-digit symbol
> (XBT, XBC, IBT, NBC, or whatever--I really don't care), we are now fully
> compliant with any software accounting package out there.
>
> We are still very, very early in the adoption period. These are changes
> that could be made now simply by a few big players and/or the bitcoin
> foundation changing their practice and their users following suit.
>
> On 03/14/2014 07:49 AM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
> > How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
> >
> > At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what
> > people would expect. Certainly more familiar than µBTC 3558 or BTC
> > 0.003578.
> >
> > Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is confused.
> >
> >
> > On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
> >> You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
> >> why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
> >> gave them are bad.
> >>
> >> I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
> >> currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
> >> do.
> >>
> >> 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
> >> would be.
> >>
> >>
> >> Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
> >>
> >> On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach•de>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
> >>> because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
> >>> questions if exchange rates happen to differ by >10%.
> >>>
> >>> I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
> >>> local currency that matters to the users.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
> >>>> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
> >>>> µBTC.
> >>>>
> >>>> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
> >>>> other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
> >>>> mBTC.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
> >>>>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
> >>>>> It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
> >>>>> now.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
> >>>>> <g.rowe@froot•co.uk <mailto:g.rowe@froot•co.uk>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
> >>>>> presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
> >>>>> configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
> >>>>> combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT,
> >>>>> mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
> >>>>> symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
> >>>>> customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
> >>>>> symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
> >>>>> icon+m etc).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
> >>>>> the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
> >>>>> seems that μ+icon is more sensible.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let us know what you'd like.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
> >>>>> Awesome icon:
> >>>>> http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
> >>>>> guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay•com
> >>>>> <mailto:jgarzik@bitpay•com>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC
> >>>>> several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like
> >>>>> the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will
> >>>>> happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to
> >>>>> yet another decimal place transition.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell <w@grabhive•com
> >>>>> <mailto:w@grabhive•com>> wrote:
> >>>>>> We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do
> >>>>>> this,
> >>>>> let's do it right after the fee system is improved.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -wendell
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> grabhive.com <http://grabhive.com> |
> >>>>>> twitter.com/hivewallet
> >>>>> <http://twitter.com/hivewallet> | gpg: 6C0C9411
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer
> >>>>>>> systems
> >>>>> handle numbers to
> >>>>>>> the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen).
> >>>>>>> The
> >>>>> opposite is
> >>>>>>> untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal
> >>>>>>> places).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source
> >>>>> evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> >>>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph
> >>>>> databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed
> >>>>> leaders in the field, this first edition is now available.
> >>>>> Download your free book today!
> >>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> >>>>> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
> >>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
> >>>>> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in
> >>>>> the field, this first edition is now available. Download your
> >>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> >>>>> <mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net>
> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
> >>>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
> >>>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
> >>>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your
> >>>>> free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
> >>>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
> >>>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
> >>>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free
> >>>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book "Graph
> >>> Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
> >>> their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
> >>> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free
> >>> book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >>
> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases
> >> and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the
> >> field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book
> >> today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ Bitcoin-development
> >> mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> > "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and
> their
> > applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> > this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book
> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2014-03-14 16:15 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 112+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-11-14 11:45 Melvin Carvalho
2013-11-14 18:18 ` Luke-Jr
2013-11-17 3:22 ` Jacob Lyles
2013-11-14 20:01 ` Alan Reiner
2013-11-14 21:15 ` Mark Friedenbach
2013-11-14 21:55 ` Allen Piscitello
2013-11-14 22:00 ` Alan Reiner
2013-11-14 22:07 ` Allen Piscitello
2013-11-14 23:01 ` Luke-Jr
2013-11-14 23:11 ` Mark Friedenbach
2013-11-14 23:13 ` Luke-Jr
2013-11-14 23:22 ` Jeff Garzik
2013-11-15 0:15 ` Luke-Jr
2013-11-15 0:18 ` Mark Friedenbach
2013-11-16 0:41 ` Drak
2013-11-16 0:48 ` Mark Friedenbach
2013-11-16 1:10 ` Luke-Jr
2013-11-16 1:19 ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2013-11-16 1:19 ` Drak
2013-11-16 1:31 ` Mark Friedenbach
2013-11-15 8:55 ` Eugen Leitl
2013-11-14 22:21 ` Mark Friedenbach
2013-11-14 22:32 ` Drak
2013-11-14 22:37 ` Drak
2014-05-02 19:17 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-05-03 0:54 ` Ben Davenport
2014-05-03 1:13 ` Alan Reiner
2014-05-03 1:50 ` Aaron Voisine
2014-05-03 2:10 ` Matias Alejo Garcia
2014-05-03 2:38 ` Luke Dashjr
2014-05-03 2:41 ` Ben Davenport
2014-05-03 2:43 ` Peter Todd
2014-05-03 3:35 ` Un Ix
2014-05-03 12:32 ` Roy Badami
2014-05-03 4:23 ` Tamas Blummer
2013-11-14 22:03 ` Jeff Garzik
2013-11-14 22:31 ` Mark Friedenbach
2013-11-14 22:53 ` Alan Reiner
2013-11-14 23:01 ` Jeff Garzik
2013-11-14 23:10 ` Luke-Jr
2013-11-15 9:23 ` Eugen Leitl
2013-11-15 9:37 ` Alex Kravets
2013-11-15 9:59 ` Adam Back
2013-11-15 10:39 ` Eugen Leitl
2013-11-15 7:18 ` Wladimir
2013-11-18 2:28 ` Wendell
2014-03-13 12:56 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-13 13:29 ` Gary Rowe
2014-03-13 13:31 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-13 13:40 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-03-14 14:05 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-03-14 14:14 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-14 14:49 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-03-14 14:57 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-14 15:02 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-03-14 15:12 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-14 15:30 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-03-14 15:32 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-14 15:56 ` Andreas Schildbach
2014-03-14 16:01 ` Mark Friedenbach
2014-03-14 16:15 ` Alex Morcos [this message]
2014-03-14 16:51 ` Ricardo Filipe
2014-03-14 16:58 ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-14 15:10 ` Tyler
2014-03-14 14:18 ` Roy Badami
2014-03-13 19:38 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-13 13:34 ` Wladimir
2014-03-13 13:45 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-13 13:53 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-13 14:32 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-13 15:50 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-13 16:17 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-03-13 16:39 ` Melvin Carvalho
2014-03-13 16:55 ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-13 17:13 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-13 17:23 ` Allen Piscitello
2014-03-13 16:14 ` Alan Reiner
2014-03-13 16:23 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-13 16:29 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-13 17:18 ` Mark Friedenbach
2014-03-13 17:21 ` Jeff Garzik
2014-03-13 17:24 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-13 17:36 ` Alan Reiner
2014-03-13 17:43 ` Wladimir
2014-03-13 17:51 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-13 17:58 ` Alan Reiner
2014-03-13 19:26 ` Drak
2014-03-13 16:08 ` Troy Benjegerdes
2014-03-13 16:30 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-13 16:37 ` slush
2014-03-13 17:48 ` Luke-Jr
2014-03-13 18:23 ` Jorge Timón
2014-03-13 18:29 ` Mike Hearn
2014-03-13 18:51 ` Ben Davenport
2014-03-14 0:34 ` Jorge Timón
2014-03-14 17:14 ` vv01f
2014-03-14 20:13 ` Natanael
2014-03-14 1:26 ` Un Ix
2014-03-14 21:56 ` Odinn Cyberguerrilla
2013-11-15 10:45 ` Wladimir
2013-11-15 10:57 ` Eugen Leitl
2013-11-14 22:27 ` Drak
2013-11-15 0:05 ` Jeff Garzik
2013-11-15 0:37 ` Daniel F
2013-11-15 0:46 ` Melvin Carvalho
2013-11-15 0:57 ` Alan Reiner
2014-05-02 14:29 ` Melvin Carvalho
2013-11-15 5:21 Tamas Blummer
[not found] <mailman.271337.1390426426.2210.bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
2014-03-13 15:17 ` Tamas Blummer
2014-03-13 15:37 ` Chris Pacia
2014-03-14 16:25 Andrew Smith
[not found] <536537E2.1060200@stud.uni-saarland.de>
2014-05-03 18:46 ` Jannis Froese
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