Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Process and Votes

From: Raystonn <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 20:00:44 -0700

> Consensus-code changes are unanimous. They must be.

Excellent. Now we are getting to some actual written rules. How about updating the BIP process documentation with this? Everyone should be able to read the rules of the coin they are buying.

One moment though. Can you tell me how this particular rule came to be? The creator of Bitcoin violated this rule many times. So it must have been adopted after his departure. What process was followed to adopt this new rule? Was there consensus for it at the time? A huge portion of the user community is under the impression that Satoshi's written plans, some of which violate this new rule, will be implemented. So there certainly would not be consensus for this rule today.

On 24 Jun 2015 6:51 pm, Mark Friedenbach <[email-masked]> wrote:

I'm sorry but this is absolutely not the case, Milly. The reason that people get defensive is that we have a carefully constructed process that does work (thank you very much!) and is well documented. We talk about it quite often in fact as it is a defining characteristic of how bitcoin is developed which differs in some ways from how other open source software is developed -- although it remains the same in most other ways.

Changes to the non-consensus sections of Bitcoin Core tend to get merged when there are a few reviews, tests, and ACKs from recognized developers, there are no outstanding objections, and the maintainer doing the merge makes a subjective judgement that the code is ready.

Consensus-changes, on the other hand, get merged into Bitcoin Core only after the above criteria are met AND an extremely long discussion period that has given all the relevant stakeholders a chance to comment, and no significant objections remain. Consensus-code changes are unanimous. They must be.

The sort of process that exists in standards bodies for example, with working groups and formal voting procedures, has no place where changes define the nature and validity of other people's money. Who has the right to reach into your pocket and define how you can or cannot spend your coins? The premise of bitcoin is that no one has that right, yet that is very much what we do when consensus code changes are made. That is why when we make a change to the rules governing the nature of bitcoin, we must make sure that everyone is made aware of the change and consents to it.

Everyone. Does this work? Does this scale? So far, it does. Uncontroversial changes, such as BIP 66, are deployed without issue. Every indication is that BIP 66 will complete deployment in the very near future, and we intend to repeat this process for more interesting changes such as BIP65: CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY.

This isn't about no one stepping forward to be the "decider." This is about no one having the right to decide these things on the behalf of others. If a contentious change is proposed and not accepted by the process of consensus, that is because the process is doing its job at rejecting controversial changes. It has nothing to do with personality, and everything to do with the nature of bitcoin itself.

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:07 PM, Milly Bitcoin <[email-masked]> wrote:

I have seen this question asked many times.  Most developers become defensive and they usually give a very vague 1-sentence answer when this question is asked.  It seems to be it is based on personalities rather than any kind of definable process.  To have that discussion the personalities must be separated out and answers like "such-and-such wouldn't do that" don't really do much to advance the discussion.  Also, the incentive for new developers to come in is that they will be paid by companies who want to influence the code and this should be considered (some developers take this statement as an insult when it is just a statement of the incentive process).

The other problem you are having is the lead developer does not want to be a "decider" when, in fact, he is a very significant decider.  While the users have the ultimate choice in a practical sense the chief developer is the "decider."  Now people don't want to get him upset so nobody wants to push the issue or fully define the process.  Now you are left with a broken, unwritten/unspoken process.  While this type of thing may work with a small group of developers businesses/investors looking in from the outside will see this as a risk.

Until you get passed all the personality-based arguments you are going to have a tough time defining a real process.

Russ

On 6/24/2015 7:41 PM, Raystonn wrote:

I would like to start a civil discussion on an undefined, or at least unwritten, portion of the BIP process.  Who should get to vote on approval to commit a BIP implementation into Bitcoin Core?  Is a simple majority of these voters sufficient for approval?  If not, then what is?

Raystonn
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