* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
@ 2015-05-26 18:43 Raystonn
2015-05-26 20:12 ` Allen Piscitello
0 siblings, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Raystonn @ 2015-05-26 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Allen Piscitello; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 18:43 [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90% Raystonn
@ 2015-05-26 20:12 ` Allen Piscitello
0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Allen Piscitello @ 2015-05-26 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Raystonn; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5670 bytes --]
I am not the one presenting this as some kind of novel attack on
transactions in general.
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Raystonn <raystonn@hotmail•com> wrote:
> Trust, regulation, law, and the threat of force. Are you serious?
> On 26 May 2015 11:38 am, Allen Piscitello <allen.piscitello@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>
> What prevents you from writing a bad check using today's systems?
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Danny Thorpe <danny.thorpe@gmail•com>
> wrote:
>
> What prevents RBF from being used for fraudulent payment reversals?
>
> Pay 1BTC to Alice for hard goods, then after you receive the goods
> broadcast a double spend of that transaction to pay Alice nothing? Your
> only cost is the higher network fee of the 2nd tx.
>
> Thanks,
> -Danny
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>
> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
> > CPFP also solves it just fine.
>
> CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
> particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
> savings ranging from 30% to 90%
>
>
> Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
> bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
>
> Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
> Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in size.
> I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
> minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
> creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
> 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
> transaction fees.
>
> On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
> rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
> to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the new
> fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
>
> Cost savings: 48%
>
>
> Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
> work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
> transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
> another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
>
> With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
> transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260 bytes
> in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
> consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
>
> Cost savings: 84%
>
>
> Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
> case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
> in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
> a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
>
> Cost savings: 90%
>
>
> Case 4: Dust defragmentation
> ----------------------------
>
> My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
> one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
> t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
>
> Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
> for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
> t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
> to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined total
> fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
> UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
>
> With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
> bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
> sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
> 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
>
> Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
> costs you more than you save
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 0000000000000000134ce6577d4122094479f548b997baf84367eaf0c190bc9f
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-27 1:25 ` Peter Todd
@ 2015-05-27 19:28 ` s7r
0 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: s7r @ 2015-05-27 19:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: bitcoin-development
Hi Peter,
Thanks for your reply.
I know and bookmarked your branch - nice work.
So, to clarify:
- bitcoin core (official / default) 0.10.x currently has First-seen
mempool behavior
- your custom branch uses replace by fee mempool behavior which allows
an user to change anything in a tx (I guess it needs just to have at
least one same input, so it can link it to another previously signed tx
with lower fee and substitute it in the mempool, correct?).
- First Seen Safe Replace by Fee (FSF-RBF) mempool behavior which allows
an user only to add inputs and/or increase the value of outputs will be
in yet another branch, maintained by you, but not in default / official
bitcoin core?
Another thing, if FSF-RBF lets you change TXes in the manner described
above, how does the client know which tx needs to be replaced in the
mempool? Since the txid naturally changes. How does it map tx1 with tx2
(to know tx2 has a higher fee and needs to substitute tx1) if quite a
lot of params from the transaction structure can change?
Thanks!
On 5/27/2015 4:25 AM, Peter Todd wrote:
> On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 12:29:28AM +0300, s7r wrote:
>> What is wrong with the man testing some ideas on his custom branch? This
>> is how improvements come to life. I saw in the BIPs some really
>> interesting ideas and nice brainstorming which came from Peter Todd.
>>
>> Now, my question, if replace by fee doesn't allow me to change the
>> inputs or the outputs, I can only add outputs... what can I do with this
>> feature? If I sent a tx and want to replace it with a higher fee one,
>> the higher fee one can only have maybe additional change addresses or
>> another payment, if the inputs suffice? Do we have any real use cases?
>
> You're a bit mistaken there: standard RBF lets you change anything, and
> FSS RBF lets you modify inputs and add outputs and/or make the value of
> outputs higher.
>
>> P.S. is it planned to include this by default in bitcoin core 10.0.3 or
>> it will remain just on Peter's branch?
>
> Any significant change to mempool policy like RBF is very unlikely to be
> incorporated in the Bitcoin Core v0.10.x branch, simply because it'd be
> too large a change for a minor, mostly bugfix, release.
>
> Having said that, I already maintain a standard RBF branch for v0.10.x,
> and have been asked by a major minor to backport FSS RBF for v0.10.x as
> well.
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 21:29 ` s7r
2015-05-26 22:06 ` Adam Back
@ 2015-05-27 1:25 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-27 19:28 ` s7r
1 sibling, 1 reply; 15+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-05-27 1:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: s7r; +Cc: bitcoin-development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1385 bytes --]
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 12:29:28AM +0300, s7r wrote:
> What is wrong with the man testing some ideas on his custom branch? This
> is how improvements come to life. I saw in the BIPs some really
> interesting ideas and nice brainstorming which came from Peter Todd.
>
> Now, my question, if replace by fee doesn't allow me to change the
> inputs or the outputs, I can only add outputs... what can I do with this
> feature? If I sent a tx and want to replace it with a higher fee one,
> the higher fee one can only have maybe additional change addresses or
> another payment, if the inputs suffice? Do we have any real use cases?
You're a bit mistaken there: standard RBF lets you change anything, and
FSS RBF lets you modify inputs and add outputs and/or make the value of
outputs higher.
> P.S. is it planned to include this by default in bitcoin core 10.0.3 or
> it will remain just on Peter's branch?
Any significant change to mempool policy like RBF is very unlikely to be
incorporated in the Bitcoin Core v0.10.x branch, simply because it'd be
too large a change for a minor, mostly bugfix, release.
Having said that, I already maintain a standard RBF branch for v0.10.x,
and have been asked by a major minor to backport FSS RBF for v0.10.x as
well.
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
00000000000000000b9e6c1ce35e6e06c01b1f381840bcd9297f307cb1e6aae8
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 20:30 ` joliver
2015-05-26 20:56 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-26 21:29 ` s7r
@ 2015-05-26 22:29 ` Jeff Garzik
2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Jeff Garzik @ 2015-05-26 22:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: joliver; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 523 bytes --]
That attitude and doxxing is not appropriate for this list.
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 4:30 PM, <joliver@airmail•cc> wrote:
> You're the Chief Scientist of __ViaCoin__ a alt with 30 second blocks
> and you have big banks as clients. Shit like replace-by-fee and leading
> the anti-scaling mob is for your clients, not Bitcoin. Get the fuck out.
> <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>
>
--
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 21:29 ` s7r
@ 2015-05-26 22:06 ` Adam Back
2015-05-27 1:25 ` Peter Todd
1 sibling, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Adam Back @ 2015-05-26 22:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: s7r; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
Well so for example it could have an additional input (to increase the
BTC paid into the transaction) and pay more to an existing change
address and higher fee, or add an additional change address, and leave
a larger fee, or if you had a right-sized coin add an additional input
that all goes to fees.
(As well as optionally tacking on additional pending payments to other
addresses funded from the higher input).
Adam
On 26 May 2015 at 22:29, s7r <s7r@sky-ip•org> wrote:
> What is wrong with the man testing some ideas on his custom branch? This
> is how improvements come to life. I saw in the BIPs some really
> interesting ideas and nice brainstorming which came from Peter Todd.
>
> Now, my question, if replace by fee doesn't allow me to change the
> inputs or the outputs, I can only add outputs... what can I do with this
> feature? If I sent a tx and want to replace it with a higher fee one,
> the higher fee one can only have maybe additional change addresses or
> another payment, if the inputs suffice? Do we have any real use cases?
>
> P.S. is it planned to include this by default in bitcoin core 10.0.3 or
> it will remain just on Peter's branch?
>
> On 5/26/2015 11:30 PM, joliver@airmail•cc wrote:
>> You're the Chief Scientist of __ViaCoin__ a alt with 30 second blocks
>> and you have big banks as clients. Shit like replace-by-fee and leading
>> the anti-scaling mob is for your clients, not Bitcoin. Get the fuck out.
>>
>> Peter Todd - 8930511 Canada Ltd.
>> 1214-1423 Mississauga Valley Blvd.
>> Mississauga ON L5A 4A5
>> Canada
>>
>> https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=8930511
>>
>> On 2015-05-26 00:10, Peter Todd wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
>>>> CPFP also solves it just fine.
>>>
>>> CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
>>> particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
>>> savings ranging from 30% to 90%
>>>
>>>
>>> Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
>>> bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
>>>
>>> Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
>>> Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in
>>> size.
>>> I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
>>> minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
>>> creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
>>> 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
>>> transaction fees.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
>>> rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
>>> to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the
>>> new
>>> fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
>>>
>>> Cost savings: 48%
>>>
>>>
>>> Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
>>> ------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
>>> work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
>>> transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
>>> another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
>>>
>>> With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
>>> transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260
>>> bytes
>>> in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
>>> consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
>>>
>>> Cost savings: 84%
>>>
>>>
>>> Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
>>> case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
>>> in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
>>> a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
>>>
>>> Cost savings: 90%
>>>
>>>
>>> Case 4: Dust defragmentation
>>> ----------------------------
>>>
>>> My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
>>> one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
>>> t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
>>>
>>> Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
>>> for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
>>> t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
>>> to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined
>>> total
>>> fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
>>> UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
>>>
>>> With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
>>> bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
>>> sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
>>> 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
>>>
>>> Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
>>> costs you more than you save
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> One dashboard for servers and applications across
>>> Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable
>>> Insights
>>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 20:30 ` joliver
2015-05-26 20:56 ` Mark Friedenbach
@ 2015-05-26 21:29 ` s7r
2015-05-26 22:06 ` Adam Back
2015-05-27 1:25 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-26 22:29 ` Jeff Garzik
2 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: s7r @ 2015-05-26 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
What is wrong with the man testing some ideas on his custom branch? This
is how improvements come to life. I saw in the BIPs some really
interesting ideas and nice brainstorming which came from Peter Todd.
Now, my question, if replace by fee doesn't allow me to change the
inputs or the outputs, I can only add outputs... what can I do with this
feature? If I sent a tx and want to replace it with a higher fee one,
the higher fee one can only have maybe additional change addresses or
another payment, if the inputs suffice? Do we have any real use cases?
P.S. is it planned to include this by default in bitcoin core 10.0.3 or
it will remain just on Peter's branch?
On 5/26/2015 11:30 PM, joliver@airmail•cc wrote:
> You're the Chief Scientist of __ViaCoin__ a alt with 30 second blocks
> and you have big banks as clients. Shit like replace-by-fee and leading
> the anti-scaling mob is for your clients, not Bitcoin. Get the fuck out.
>
> Peter Todd - 8930511 Canada Ltd.
> 1214-1423 Mississauga Valley Blvd.
> Mississauga ON L5A 4A5
> Canada
>
> https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=8930511
>
> On 2015-05-26 00:10, Peter Todd wrote:
>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
>>> CPFP also solves it just fine.
>>
>> CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
>> particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
>> savings ranging from 30% to 90%
>>
>>
>> Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
>> bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
>>
>> Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
>> Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in
>> size.
>> I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
>> minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
>> creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
>> 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
>> transaction fees.
>>
>> On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
>> rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
>> to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the
>> new
>> fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
>>
>> Cost savings: 48%
>>
>>
>> Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
>> ------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
>> work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
>> transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
>> another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
>>
>> With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
>> transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260
>> bytes
>> in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
>> consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
>>
>> Cost savings: 84%
>>
>>
>> Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
>> case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
>> in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
>> a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
>>
>> Cost savings: 90%
>>
>>
>> Case 4: Dust defragmentation
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
>> one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
>> t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
>>
>> Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
>> for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
>> t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
>> to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined
>> total
>> fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
>> UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
>>
>> With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
>> bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
>> sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
>> 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
>>
>> Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
>> costs you more than you save
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across
>> Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable
>> Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 20:30 ` joliver
@ 2015-05-26 20:56 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-26 21:29 ` s7r
2015-05-26 22:29 ` Jeff Garzik
2 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Mark Friedenbach @ 2015-05-26 20:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: joliver; +Cc: Bitcoin Development
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5176 bytes --]
Please let's at least have some civility and decorum on this list.
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 1:30 PM, <joliver@airmail•cc> wrote:
> You're the Chief Scientist of __ViaCoin__ a alt with 30 second blocks
> and you have big banks as clients. Shit like replace-by-fee and leading
> the anti-scaling mob is for your clients, not Bitcoin. Get the fuck out.
>
> Peter Todd - 8930511 Canada Ltd.
> 1214-1423 Mississauga Valley Blvd.
> Mississauga ON L5A 4A5
> Canada
>
>
> https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=8930511
>
> On 2015-05-26 00:10, Peter Todd wrote:
> > On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
> >> CPFP also solves it just fine.
> >
> > CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
> > particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
> > savings ranging from 30% to 90%
> >
> >
> > Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
> > bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
> >
> > Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
> > Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in
> > size.
> > I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
> > minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
> > creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
> > 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
> > transaction fees.
> >
> > On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
> > rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
> > to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the
> > new
> > fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
> >
> > Cost savings: 48%
> >
> >
> > Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
> > ------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
> > work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
> > transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
> > another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
> >
> > With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
> > transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260
> > bytes
> > in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
> > consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
> >
> > Cost savings: 84%
> >
> >
> > Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
> > case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
> > in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
> > a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
> >
> > Cost savings: 90%
> >
> >
> > Case 4: Dust defragmentation
> > ----------------------------
> >
> > My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
> > one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
> > t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
> >
> > Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
> > for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
> > t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
> > to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined
> > total
> > fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
> > UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
> >
> > With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
> > bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
> > sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
> > 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
> >
> > Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
> > costs you more than you save
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > One dashboard for servers and applications across
> > Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> > Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> > Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable
> > Insights
> > Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6795 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 0:10 ` [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90% Peter Todd
2015-05-26 18:22 ` Danny Thorpe
@ 2015-05-26 20:30 ` joliver
2015-05-26 20:56 ` Mark Friedenbach
` (2 more replies)
1 sibling, 3 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: joliver @ 2015-05-26 20:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-development
You're the Chief Scientist of __ViaCoin__ a alt with 30 second blocks
and you have big banks as clients. Shit like replace-by-fee and leading
the anti-scaling mob is for your clients, not Bitcoin. Get the fuck out.
Peter Todd - 8930511 Canada Ltd.
1214-1423 Mississauga Valley Blvd.
Mississauga ON L5A 4A5
Canada
https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=8930511
On 2015-05-26 00:10, Peter Todd wrote:
> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
>> CPFP also solves it just fine.
>
> CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
> particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
> savings ranging from 30% to 90%
>
>
> Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
> bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
>
> Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
> Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in
> size.
> I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
> minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
> creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
> 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
> transaction fees.
>
> On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
> rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
> to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the
> new
> fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
>
> Cost savings: 48%
>
>
> Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
> work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
> transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
> another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
>
> With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
> transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260
> bytes
> in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
> consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
>
> Cost savings: 84%
>
>
> Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
> case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
> in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
> a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
>
> Cost savings: 90%
>
>
> Case 4: Dust defragmentation
> ----------------------------
>
> My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
> one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
> t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
>
> Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
> for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
> t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
> to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined
> total
> fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
> UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
>
> With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
> bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
> sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
> 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
>
> Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
> costs you more than you save
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across
> Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable
> Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 18:22 ` Danny Thorpe
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2015-05-26 18:47 ` Adam Back
@ 2015-05-26 20:18 ` Matt Whitlock
3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Matt Whitlock @ 2015-05-26 20:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Danny Thorpe; +Cc: bitcoin-development
On Tuesday, 26 May 2015, at 11:22 am, Danny Thorpe wrote:
> What prevents RBF from being used for fraudulent payment reversals?
>
> Pay 1BTC to Alice for hard goods, then after you receive the goods
> broadcast a double spend of that transaction to pay Alice nothing? Your
> only cost is the higher network fee of the 2nd tx.
The "First-Seen-Safe" replace-by-fee presently being discussed on this list disallows fraudulent payment reversals, as it disallows a replacing transaction that pays less to any output script than the replaced transaction paid.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 18:22 ` Danny Thorpe
2015-05-26 18:38 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-05-26 18:42 ` Aaron Voisine
@ 2015-05-26 18:47 ` Adam Back
2015-05-26 20:18 ` Matt Whitlock
3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Adam Back @ 2015-05-26 18:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Danny Thorpe; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
The general idea for replace by fee is that it would be restricted so
as to make it safe, eg all the original addresses should receive no
less bitcoin (more addresses can be added).
The scorched earth game theory stuff (allowing removing recipients) is
kind of orthogonal.
Adam
On 26 May 2015 at 19:22, Danny Thorpe <danny.thorpe@gmail•com> wrote:
> What prevents RBF from being used for fraudulent payment reversals?
>
> Pay 1BTC to Alice for hard goods, then after you receive the goods broadcast
> a double spend of that transaction to pay Alice nothing? Your only cost is
> the higher network fee of the 2nd tx.
>
> Thanks,
> -Danny
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
>> > CPFP also solves it just fine.
>>
>> CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
>> particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
>> savings ranging from 30% to 90%
>>
>>
>> Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
>> bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
>>
>> Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
>> Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in size.
>> I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
>> minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
>> creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
>> 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
>> transaction fees.
>>
>> On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
>> rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
>> to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the new
>> fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
>>
>> Cost savings: 48%
>>
>>
>> Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
>> ------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
>> work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
>> transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
>> another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
>>
>> With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
>> transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260 bytes
>> in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
>> consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
>>
>> Cost savings: 84%
>>
>>
>> Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
>> case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
>> in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
>> a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
>>
>> Cost savings: 90%
>>
>>
>> Case 4: Dust defragmentation
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
>> one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
>> t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
>>
>> Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
>> for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
>> t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
>> to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined total
>> fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
>> UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
>>
>> With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
>> bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
>> sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
>> 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
>>
>> Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
>> costs you more than you save
>>
>> --
>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>> 0000000000000000134ce6577d4122094479f548b997baf84367eaf0c190bc9f
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 18:22 ` Danny Thorpe
2015-05-26 18:38 ` Allen Piscitello
@ 2015-05-26 18:42 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-05-26 18:47 ` Adam Back
2015-05-26 20:18 ` Matt Whitlock
3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Aaron Voisine @ 2015-05-26 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Danny Thorpe; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5472 bytes --]
See the "first-seen-safe replace-by-fee" thread
Aaron Voisine
co-founder and CEO
breadwallet.com
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Danny Thorpe <danny.thorpe@gmail•com>
wrote:
> What prevents RBF from being used for fraudulent payment reversals?
>
> Pay 1BTC to Alice for hard goods, then after you receive the goods
> broadcast a double spend of that transaction to pay Alice nothing? Your
> only cost is the higher network fee of the 2nd tx.
>
> Thanks,
> -Danny
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
>> > CPFP also solves it just fine.
>>
>> CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
>> particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
>> savings ranging from 30% to 90%
>>
>>
>> Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
>> bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
>>
>> Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
>> Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in size.
>> I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
>> minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
>> creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
>> 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
>> transaction fees.
>>
>> On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
>> rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
>> to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the new
>> fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
>>
>> Cost savings: 48%
>>
>>
>> Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
>> ------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
>> work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
>> transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
>> another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
>>
>> With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
>> transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260 bytes
>> in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
>> consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
>>
>> Cost savings: 84%
>>
>>
>> Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
>> case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
>> in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
>> a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
>>
>> Cost savings: 90%
>>
>>
>> Case 4: Dust defragmentation
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
>> one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
>> t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
>>
>> Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
>> for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
>> t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
>> to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined total
>> fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
>> UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
>>
>> With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
>> bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
>> sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
>> 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
>>
>> Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
>> costs you more than you save
>>
>> --
>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>> 0000000000000000134ce6577d4122094479f548b997baf84367eaf0c190bc9f
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7254 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 18:22 ` Danny Thorpe
@ 2015-05-26 18:38 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-05-26 18:42 ` Aaron Voisine
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Allen Piscitello @ 2015-05-26 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Danny Thorpe; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5438 bytes --]
What prevents you from writing a bad check using today's systems?
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Danny Thorpe <danny.thorpe@gmail•com>
wrote:
> What prevents RBF from being used for fraudulent payment reversals?
>
> Pay 1BTC to Alice for hard goods, then after you receive the goods
> broadcast a double spend of that transaction to pay Alice nothing? Your
> only cost is the higher network fee of the 2nd tx.
>
> Thanks,
> -Danny
>
> On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
>> > CPFP also solves it just fine.
>>
>> CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
>> particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
>> savings ranging from 30% to 90%
>>
>>
>> Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
>> ----------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
>> bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
>>
>> Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
>> Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in size.
>> I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
>> minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
>> creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
>> 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
>> transaction fees.
>>
>> On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
>> rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
>> to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the new
>> fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
>>
>> Cost savings: 48%
>>
>>
>> Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
>> ------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
>> work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
>> transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
>> another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
>>
>> With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
>> transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260 bytes
>> in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
>> consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
>>
>> Cost savings: 84%
>>
>>
>> Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
>> case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
>> in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
>> a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
>>
>> Cost savings: 90%
>>
>>
>> Case 4: Dust defragmentation
>> ----------------------------
>>
>> My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
>> one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
>> t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
>>
>> Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
>> for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
>> t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
>> to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined total
>> fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
>> UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
>>
>> With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
>> bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
>> sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
>> 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
>>
>> Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
>> costs you more than you save
>>
>> --
>> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>> 0000000000000000134ce6577d4122094479f548b997baf84367eaf0c190bc9f
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
>> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
>> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
>> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
>> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* Re: [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-26 0:10 ` [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90% Peter Todd
@ 2015-05-26 18:22 ` Danny Thorpe
2015-05-26 18:38 ` Allen Piscitello
` (3 more replies)
2015-05-26 20:30 ` joliver
1 sibling, 4 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Danny Thorpe @ 2015-05-26 18:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Peter Todd; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4553 bytes --]
What prevents RBF from being used for fraudulent payment reversals?
Pay 1BTC to Alice for hard goods, then after you receive the goods
broadcast a double spend of that transaction to pay Alice nothing? Your
only cost is the higher network fee of the 2nd tx.
Thanks,
-Danny
On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org> wrote:
> On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
> > CPFP also solves it just fine.
>
> CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
> particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
> savings ranging from 30% to 90%
>
>
> Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
> ----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
> bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
>
> Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
> Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in size.
> I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
> minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
> creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
> 1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
> transaction fees.
>
> On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
> rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
> to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the new
> fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
>
> Cost savings: 48%
>
>
> Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
> ------------------------------------------------
>
> Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
> work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
> transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
> another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
>
> With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
> transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260 bytes
> in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
> consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
>
> Cost savings: 84%
>
>
> Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
> case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
> in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
> a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
>
> Cost savings: 90%
>
>
> Case 4: Dust defragmentation
> ----------------------------
>
> My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
> one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
> t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
>
> Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
> for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
> t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
> to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined total
> fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
> UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
>
> With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
> bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
> sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
> 1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
>
> Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
> costs you more than you save
>
> --
> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> 0000000000000000134ce6577d4122094479f548b997baf84367eaf0c190bc9f
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> One dashboard for servers and applications across Physical-Virtual-Cloud
> Widest out-of-the-box monitoring support with 50+ applications
> Performance metrics, stats and reports that give you Actionable Insights
> Deep dive visibility with transaction tracing using APM Insight.
> http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/290420510;117567292;y
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists•sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
* [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90%
2015-05-25 22:03 ` Mike Hearn
@ 2015-05-26 0:10 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-26 18:22 ` Danny Thorpe
2015-05-26 20:30 ` joliver
0 siblings, 2 replies; 15+ messages in thread
From: Peter Todd @ 2015-05-26 0:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Mike Hearn; +Cc: Bitcoin Dev
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3521 bytes --]
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:03:09AM +0200, Mike Hearn wrote:
> CPFP also solves it just fine.
CPFP is a significantly more expensive way of paying fees than RBF,
particularly for the use-case of defragmenting outputs, with cost
savings ranging from 30% to 90%
Case 1: CPFP vs. RBF for increasing the fee on a single tx
----------------------------------------------------------
Creating an spending a P2PKH output uses 34 bytes of txout, and 148
bytes of txin, 182 bytes total.
Let's suppose I have a 1 BTC P2PKH output and I want to pay 0.1 BTC to
Alice. This results in a 1in/2out transaction t1 that's 226 bytes in size.
I forget to click on the "priority fee" option, so it goes out with the
minimum fee of 2.26uBTC. Whoops! I use CPFP to spend that output,
creating a new transaction t2 that's 192 bytes in size. I want to pay
1mBTC/KB for a fast confirmation, so I'm now paying 418uBTC of
transaction fees.
On the other hand, had I use RBF, my wallet would have simply
rebroadcast t1 with the change address decreased. The rules require you
to pay 2.26uBTC for the bandwidth consumed broadcasting it, plus the new
fee level, or 218uBTC of fees in total.
Cost savings: 48%
Case 2: Paying multiple recipients in succession
------------------------------------------------
Suppose that after I pay Alice, I also decide to pay Bob for his hard
work demonstrating cryptographic protocols. I need to create a new
transaction t2 spending t1's change address. Normally t2 would be
another 226 bytes in size, resulting in 226uBTC additional fees.
With RBF on the other hand I can simply double-spend t1 with a
transaction paying both Alice and Bob. This new transaction is 260 bytes
in size. I have to pay 2.6uBTC additional fees to pay for the bandwidth
consumed broadcasting it, resulting in an additional 36uBTC of fees.
Cost savings: 84%
Case 3: Paying multiple recipients from a 2-of-3 multisig wallet
----------------------------------------------------------------
The above situation gets even worse with multisig. t1 in the multisig
case is 367 bytes; t2 another 367 bytes, costing an additional 367uBTC
in fees. With RBF we rewrite t1 with an additional output, resulting in
a 399 byte transaction, with just 36uBTC in additional fees.
Cost savings: 90%
Case 4: Dust defragmentation
----------------------------
My wallet has a two transaction outputs that it wants to combine into
one for the purpose of UTXO defragmentation. It broadcasts transaction
t1 with two inputs and one output, size 340 bytes, paying zero fees.
Prior to the transaction confirming I find I need to spend those funds
for a priority transaction at the 1mBTC/KB fee level. This transaction,
t2a, has one input and two outputs, 226 bytes in size. However it needs
to pay fees for both transactions at once, resulting in a combined total
fee of 556uBTC. If this situation happens frequently, defragmenting
UTXOs is likely to cost more in additional fees than it saves.
With RBF I'd simply doublespend t1 with a 2-in-2-out transaction 374
bytes in size, paying 374uBTC. Even better, if one of the two inputs is
sufficiently large to cover my costs I can doublespend t1 with a
1-in-2-out tx just 226 bytes in size, paying 226uBTC.
Cost savings: 32% to 59%, or even infinite if defragmentation w/o RBF
costs you more than you save
--
'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
0000000000000000134ce6577d4122094479f548b997baf84367eaf0c190bc9f
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 15+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2015-05-27 19:29 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 15+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-05-26 18:43 [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90% Raystonn
2015-05-26 20:12 ` Allen Piscitello
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2015-05-09 17:09 [Bitcoin-development] A suggestion for reducing the size of the UTXO database Jim Phillips
2015-05-25 18:44 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-25 21:26 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-25 22:03 ` Mike Hearn
2015-05-26 0:10 ` [Bitcoin-development] Cost savings by using replace-by-fee, 30-90% Peter Todd
2015-05-26 18:22 ` Danny Thorpe
2015-05-26 18:38 ` Allen Piscitello
2015-05-26 18:42 ` Aaron Voisine
2015-05-26 18:47 ` Adam Back
2015-05-26 20:18 ` Matt Whitlock
2015-05-26 20:30 ` joliver
2015-05-26 20:56 ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-05-26 21:29 ` s7r
2015-05-26 22:06 ` Adam Back
2015-05-27 1:25 ` Peter Todd
2015-05-27 19:28 ` s7r
2015-05-26 22:29 ` Jeff Garzik
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