From: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd•org>
To: Jeremy Rubin <jeremy.l.rubin@gmail•com>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>,
lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>,
Jeremy <jlrubin@mit•edu>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Pre-BIP] Fee Accounts
Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2022 10:52:47 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <YlmGv6WbDeDqGJKX@petertodd.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAD5xwhj1kaJf+QCcf1MOtaAec-xTTr2M9LkJPCu2Ej0L9_3iPg@mail.gmail.com>
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4821 bytes --]
On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 09:18:10AM -0400, Jeremy Rubin wrote:
> > nonsense marketing
>
> I'm sure the people who are confused about "blockchain schemes as \"world
> computers\" and other nonsense
> marketing" are avid and regular readers of the bitcoin devs mailing list so
> I offer my sincerest apologies to all members of the intersection of those
> sets who were confused by the description given.
Of course, uninformed people _do_ read all kinds of technical materials. And
more importantly, those technical materials get quoted by journalists,
scammers, etc.
> > useless work
>
> progress is not useless work, it *is* useful work in this context. you have
> committed to some subset of data that you requested -- if it was 'useless',
> why did you *ever* bother to commit it in the first place? However, it is
> not 'maximally useful' in some sense. However, progress is progress --
> suppose you only confirmed 50% of the commitments, is that not progress? If
> you just happened to observe 50% of the commitments commit because of
> proximity to the time a block was mined and tx propagation naturally would
> you call it useless?
Please don't trim quoted text to the point where all context is lost. Lots of
people read this mailing list and doing that isn't helpful to them.
> > Remember that OTS simply proves data in the past. Nothing more.
> > OTS doesn't have a chain of transactions
> Gotcha -- I've not been able to find an actual spec of Open Time Stamps
The technical spec of OpenTimestamps is of course the normative validation
source code, currently python-opentimestamps, similar to how the technical spec
of Bitcoin is the consensus parts of the Bitcoin Core codebase. The explanatory
docs are linked on https://opentimestamps.org under the "How It Works" section.
It'd be good to take the linked post in that section and turn it into better
explanatory materials with graphics (esp interactive/animated graphics).
> anywhere, so I suppose I just assumed based on how I think it *should*
> work. Having a chain of transactions would serve to linearize history of
> OTS commitments which would let you prove, given reorgs, that knowledge of
> commit A was before B a bit more robustly.
I'll reply to this as a separate email as this discussion - while useful - is
getting quite off topic for this thread.
> > I'd rather do one transaction with all pending commitments at a
> particular time
> rather than waste money on mining two transactions for a given set of
> commitments
>
> This sounds like a personal preference v.s. a technical requirement.
>
> You aren't doing any extra transactions in the model i showed, what you're
> doing is selecting the window for the next based on the prior conf.
...the model you showed is wrong, as there is no reason to have a linearized
transaction history. OpenTimestamps proofs don't even have the concept of
transactions: the proof format proves that data existed prior to a merkle root
of a particular Bitcoin block. Not a Bitcoin transaction.
> See the diagram below, you would have to (if OTS is correct) support this
> sort of 'attempt/confirm' head that tracks attempted commitments and
> confirmed ones and 'rewinds' after a confirm to make the next commit
> contain the prior attempts that didn't make it.
>
> [.........................................................................]
> ------^ confirm head tx 0 at height 34
> ------------------------^ attempt head after tx 0
> -----------^ confirm head tx 1 at height 35
> --------------------------^ attempt head after tx 1
> ------------^ confirm head tx 2 at height 36
> -------------------------------^
> attempt head after tx 2
> -------------------------------^
> confirm head tx 3 at height 37
>
> you can compare this to a "spherical cow" model where RBF is always perfect
> and guaranteed inclusion:
>
>
> [.........................................................................]
> ------^ confirm head tx 0 at height 34
> -------------------------^ confirm head tx 1 at height 35
> -----------^ confirm head at tx 1
> height 36
> -----------------^
> confirm head tx 3 at height 37
>
> The same number of transactions gets used over the time period.
None of the above has anything to do with how OpenTimestamps works.
Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I remain of the opinion that in the
unlikely event that fee accounts is ever implemented, it should be opt-in.
--
https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-04-15 14:52 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 44+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-01-01 20:04 Jeremy
2022-01-18 16:12 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-01-18 17:43 ` Jeremy
2022-01-19 2:37 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-01-19 2:51 ` Jeremy
2022-01-19 4:53 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-01-19 7:32 ` Jeremy
2022-01-19 16:51 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-01-19 20:08 ` Jeremy
2022-01-20 5:23 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-02-10 6:58 ` Peter Todd
2022-02-10 8:08 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-18 23:50 ` Peter Todd
2022-02-19 0:38 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-19 9:39 ` Peter Todd
2022-02-19 17:20 ` [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] " darosior
2022-02-19 20:35 ` Peter Todd
2022-02-20 2:24 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-20 2:39 ` ZmnSCPxj
[not found] ` <590cf52920040c9cf7517b219624bbb5@willtech.com.au>
2022-02-20 14:24 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-20 16:29 ` Jeremy Rubin
[not found] ` <CAD5xwhgEeTETburW=OBgHNe_V1kk8o06TDQLiLgdfmP2AEVuPg@mail.gmail.com>
2022-02-20 16:34 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-20 16:45 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-20 16:29 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Jeremy Rubin
2022-04-10 19:32 ` Peter Todd
2022-04-11 13:18 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-04-15 14:52 ` Peter Todd [this message]
2022-04-17 20:57 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-04-28 12:15 ` Peter Todd
2022-05-02 15:59 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-06-14 11:12 ` [bitcoin-dev] Why OpenTimestamps does not "linearize" its transactions Peter Todd
2022-06-14 11:39 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-14 11:53 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-14 12:28 ` rot13maxi
2022-06-14 12:45 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-14 13:55 ` Bryan Bishop
2022-06-14 15:06 ` digital vagabond
2022-06-14 15:34 ` Peter Todd
2022-06-14 17:15 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-14 20:33 ` Andrew Poelstra
2022-06-15 1:16 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-15 1:21 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-19 11:04 ` Peter Todd
2022-06-14 15:22 ` Peter Todd
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=YlmGv6WbDeDqGJKX@petertodd.org \
--to=pete@petertodd$(echo .)org \
--cc=bitcoin-dev@lists$(echo .)linuxfoundation.org \
--cc=jeremy.l.rubin@gmail$(echo .)com \
--cc=jlrubin@mit$(echo .)edu \
--cc=lightning-dev@lists$(echo .)linuxfoundation.org \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox