From: Anthony Towns <aj@erisian•com.au>
To: Sergej Kotliar <sergej@bitrefill•com>,
Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [bitcoindev] Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger
Date: Fri, 2 May 2025 20:06:18 +1000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <aBSZGqZ50K-WVnAf@erisian.com.au> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CABZBVTBupMcBbOUtLbMaEmAiWGsMwisNW+k+bTUJGsUad2=ZZg@mail.gmail.com>
On Thu, Oct 20, 2022 at 02:37:53PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Oct 2022 at 09:22, Anthony Towns <aj@erisian•com.au> wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 19, 2022 at 04:29:57PM +0200, Sergej Kotliar via bitcoin-dev
> > wrote:
> > > Currently Lightning is somewhere around 15% of our total bitcoin
> > > payments.
> > So, based on last year's numbers, presumably that makes your bitcoin
> > payments break down as something like:
> >
> > 5% txs are on-chain and seem shady and are excluded from zeroconf
> > 15% txs are lightning
> > 20% txs are on-chain but signal rbf and are excluded from zeroconf
> > 60% txs are on-chain and seem fine for zeroconf
> Numbers are right. Shady is too strong a word, it's mostly transactions
> with very low fee, or high purchase amount, or many dependent unconfirmed
> transactions, stuff like that. In some cases we do a human assessment of
> the support ticket and often just pass them through.
> > > This is very much not nothing, and all of us here want Lightning to grow,
> > > but I think it warrants a serious discussion on whether we want Lightning
> > > adoption to go to 100% by means of disabling on-chain commerce.
> > If the numbers above were accurate, this would just mean you'd go from 60%
> > zeroconf/25% not-zeroconf to 85% not-zeroconf; wouldn't be 0% on-chain.
> Point is that RBF transactions are unsafe even when waiting for a
> confirmation, which Peter Todd trivially proved in the reply next to this.
> The reliable solution is to reject all RBF payments and direct those users
> to custodial accounts. There are other variants to solve this with varying
> degree of convolutedness. RBF is a strictly worse UX as proven by anyone
> accepting bitcoin payments at scale.
So the mempoolfullrbf default changed from false to true in 28.0 released
in October last year, which is advertised as being run by maybe 30%-40%
of the network now, and fullrbf transactions have been reportedly been mined
reliably since well before that.
Any chance of an update on how that change has affected bitcoin/lightning
payment volume for you guys, or customer satisfaction (if payment
acceptance is delayed more often), or how much engineering/support time
was needed to adapt, or any other impact?
Cheers,
aj
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-05-02 10:33 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 33+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <CABZBVTC5kh7ca3KhVkFPdQjnsPhP4Kun1k3K6cPkarrjUiTJpA@mail.gmail.com>
2022-10-19 14:29 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-19 14:45 ` Erik Aronesty
2022-10-19 15:43 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-10-19 15:51 ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-19 16:04 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-19 16:08 ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-20 1:37 ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-20 14:11 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 1:04 ` Antoine Riard
2022-10-20 4:05 ` Peter Todd
2022-10-21 19:35 ` Peter Todd
2022-10-20 7:22 ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-20 12:37 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 14:14 ` Ruben Somsen
2022-10-20 14:17 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 19:58 ` Anthony Towns
2022-10-20 21:05 ` David A. Harding
2022-10-20 21:07 ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-20 22:02 ` Eloy
2022-10-21 12:02 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 14:01 ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-21 14:19 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 14:47 ` Greg Sanders
2022-10-21 19:43 ` Peter Todd
2022-10-24 7:55 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-20 22:13 ` Peter Todd
2022-10-21 9:34 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 19:33 ` Peter Todd
2022-10-24 7:45 ` Sergej Kotliar
2022-10-21 11:56 ` Sergej Kotliar
2025-05-02 10:06 ` Anthony Towns [this message]
2022-10-23 19:20 ` David A. Harding
2022-10-23 20:51 ` alicexbt
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