From: Hunter Beast <hunter@surmount•systems>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Proposing a P2QRH BIP towards a quantum resistant soft fork
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 22:05:45 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <ac28feaf-6649-4501-9b1a-1410e5baa05dn@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1b86f467-95e5-4558-98bc-b921dd29e1afn@googlegroups.com>
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I've taken Antoine's feedback to heart and added FALCON to the
specification, including a section that addresses the increased maintenance
burden of adding two distinct post-quantum cryptosystems.
Please review.
https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/pull/9/files
On Tuesday, August 6, 2024 at 11:50:35 AM UTC-6 Hunter Beast wrote:
> That's alright, Antoine, it's been a busy month for me too.
>
> > So I think it's good to stay cool minded and I think my observation
> about talking of "super-exponential rate" as used in maaku old blog post
> does not
> > hold a lot of rigor to describe the advances in the field of quantum
> computing. Note, also how IMB is a commercial entity that can have a lot of
> interests
> > in "pumping" the state of "quantum computing" to gather fundings (there
> is a historical anecdote among bitcoin OG circles about Vitalik trying to
> do an
> > ICO to build a quantum computer like 10 years ago, just to remember).
>
> Well, it's also important to remember that for every qubit added, it
> doubles the power of the system. A 2,000 qubit cryptographically-relevant
> quantum computer (CRQC) is exponentially faster than a 1,000 qubit one.
> There's also the capability for cross-links for multiple chips to
> communicate with each other, which IBM is also researching. The IBM Quantum
> System Two can be upgraded to support 16,000 qubits according to their
> marketing. Also consider that the verification of the results from the CRQC
> can be done via classical computer, so a high level of error correction
> might not be as necessary so long as the program is run enough times. It
> will take much longer, of course.
>
> > I think FALCON is what has the smallest pubkey + sig size for
> hash-and-sign lattice-based schemes. So I think it's worth reworking the
> BIP to see what has the smallest generation / validation time and pubkey +
> size space for the main post-quantum scheme. At least for dilthium, falcon,
> sphincs+ and SQISign. For an hypothetical witness discount, a v2 P2QRH
> could be always be moved in a very template annex tag / field.
>
> I've decided in one of my more recent updates to the BIP to default to the
> highest level of NIST security, NIST V, which provides 256 bits of
> security. You can see my rationale for that in this PR:
> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/pull/7/files
> Then, referencing this table:
> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/p2qrh/bip-p2qrh.mediawiki#security
> As such, you'll see FALCON is roughly 4x larger than SQIsign signatures.
> Although supersingular elliptic curve quaternion isogeny-based algorithms
> are newer and more experimental than lattice-based cryptography, I think
> the benefits outweigh the risks, especially when transaction throughput is
> a principal concern.
>
> It's crucial that the signature and public key both receive the witness
> discount. Can you go into more detail in how that might be accomplished?
>
> Although it's too early to talk about activation of a QuBit soft fork,
> I've put some thought into how we can maintain the existing Bitcoin
> throughput with a soft fork, and I think it might be prudent to, when the
> time comes, introduce a 4x additional QuBit witness discount, maybe we call
> it the quitness, which is only available to valid P2QRH signatures. This
> would preclude its abuse for things like inscriptions because the signature
> data would need to correspond to the key, and even if this were possible,
> it's likely to result in only a burner address. This would increase chain
> state growth from roughly 100GB/yr to possibly closer to 2-300GB, depending
> on adoption. As the state of the art of SSD technology advances, this
> should allow plebs to run their own node on a 4TB disk for over a decade,
> even including existing chain size of ~600GB.
>
> If we were to use the same approach for FALCON signatures, a 16x discount
> would be needed, and I think that's far too much for the community to
> accept. As for pub key size and verification time, these are secondary
> considerations if the primary constraint is maintaining present transaction
> throughput. That's what makes SQIsign so promising.
>
> > See literature on quantum attacks on bitcoin in the reference of the
> paper you quote ("The impact of hardware specifications on reaching quantum
> advantage in the fault tolerant regime") for a discussion on Grover's
> search algorithm.
>
> The Impact paper seems to dismiss Grover's algorithm, but I think it's
> important to err on the size of caution and instead use a 32-byte double
> SHA-2 (HASH256) for additional security in the P2QRH output.
>
> > Namely you can introduce an artifical "witness-stack size scale ladder"
> in pseudo-bitcoin script: OP_SIZE <1000> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_DROP
> ...checksig...
> > I have not verified it works well on bitcoin core though this script
> should put the burden on the quantum attacker to have enough bitcoin amount
> available to burn in on-chain fees in witness size to break a P2WPKH.
>
> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this...
> Is your coin scarcity comment related to what I call "satoshi's shield" in
> the BIP?
>
> > The technical issue if you implement KYC for a mining pool you're
> increasing your DoS surface and this could be exploited by competing
> miners. A more reasonable security model can be to have miner coinbase
> pubkeys being used to commit to the "seen-in-mempool" spends and from then
> build "hand wawy" fraud proofs that a miner is quantum attacking you're
> P2WSH spends at pubkey reveal time during transaction relay.
>
> Yes, this makes more sense. I'm not sure anything can be done with the
> fraud proofs, but they could at least prove that a bad actor is present.
> Ideally both approaches are combined for maximum security and
> accountability.
>
> Thanks for your time!
>
> On Friday, July 12, 2024 at 7:44:27 PM UTC-6 Antoine Riard wrote:
>
> Hi Hunter Beast,
>
> Apologies for the delay in answer.
>
> > I was thinking of focusing on the IBM Quantum System Two, mention how it
> can be scaled, and that although it might be quite limited, if running
> Shor's variant for a > sufficient amount of time, above a certain minimum
> threshold of qubits, it might be capable of decrypting the key to an
> address within one year. I base this on the estimate > provided in a study
> by the Sussex Centre for Quantum Technologies, et. al [1]. They provide two
> figures, 317M qubits to decrypt in one hour, 13M qubits to decrypt in one >
> day. It would seem it scales roughly linearly, and so extrapolating it
> further, 36,000 qubits would be needed to decrypt an address within one
> year. However, the IBM Heron > QPU turned out to have a gate time 100x less
> than was estimated in 2022, and so it might be possible to make do with
> even fewer qubits still within that timeframe. With > only 360 qubits,
> barring algorithmic overhead such as for circuit memory, it might be
> possible to decrypt a single address within a year. That might sound like a
> lot, but > being able to accomplish that at all would be significant,
> almost like a Chicago Pile moment, proving something in practice that was
> previously only thought theoretically > possible for the past 3 decades.
> And it's only downhill from there...
>
> Briefly surveying the paper "The impact of hardware specifications on
> reaching quantum advantage in the fault tolerant regime", I think it's a
> reasonble framework to evaluate
> the practical efficiency of quantum attacks on bitcoin, it's self
> consistent and there is a critical approach referencing the usual
> litterature on quantum attacks on bitcoin. Just
> note the caveat, one can find in usual quantum complexity litterature,
> "particularly in regard to end-to-end physical resource estimation. There
> are many other error correction
> techniques available, and the best choice will likely depend on the
> underlying architecture's characteristics, such as the available physical
> qubit–qubit connectivity" (verbatim). Namely, evaluating quantum attacks is
> very dependent on the concrete physical architecture underpinning it.
>
> All that said, I agree with you that if you see a quantum computer with
> the range of 1000 physical qubits being able to break the DLP for ECC based
> encryption like secp256k1, even if it takes a year it will be a Chicago
> Pile moment, or whatever comparative experiments which were happening about
> chain of nuclear reactions in 30s / 40s.
>
> > I think it's time to revisit these discussions given IBM's progress.
> They've published a two videos in particular that are worth watching; their
> keynote from December of last > year [2], and their roadmap update from
> just last month [3]
>
> I have looked on the roadmap as it's available on the IBM blog post:
> https://www.ibm.com/quantum/blog/quantum-roadmap-2033#mark-roadmap-out-to-2033
> They give only a target of 2000 logical qubit to be reach in 2033...which
> is surprisingly not that strong...And one expect they might hit likely solid
> state issues in laying out in hardware the Heron processor architecture.
> As a point of thinking, it took like 2 decades to advance on the state of
> art
> of litography in traditional chips manufacturing.
>
> So I think it's good to stay cool minded and I think my observation about
> talking of "super-exponential rate" as used in maaku old blog post does not
> hold a lot of rigor to describe the advances in the field of quantum
> computing. Note, also how IMB is a commercial entity that can have a lot of
> interests
> in "pumping" the state of "quantum computing" to gather fundings (there is
> a historical anecdote among bitcoin OG circles about Vitalik trying to do an
> ICO to build a quantum computer like 10 years ago, just to remember).
>
> > I'm supportive of this consideration. FALCON might be a good substitute,
> and maybe it can be upgraded to HAWK for even better performance depending
> on how much > time there is. According to the BIP, FALCON signatures are
> ~10x larger t> han Schnorr signatures, so this will of course make the
> transaction more expensive, but we also > must remember, these signatures
> will be going into the witness, which already receives a 4x discount.
> Perhaps the discount could be incr> eased further someday to fit > more
> transactions into blocks, but this will also likely result in more
> inscriptions filling unused space also, which permanently increases the
> burden of running an archive > node. Due to the controversy s> uch a change
> could bring, I would rather any increases in the witness discount be
> excluded from future activation discussions, so as to be > considered
> separately, even if it pertains to an increase in P2QRH transaction size.
>
> > Do you think it's worth reworking the BIP to use FALCON signatures? I've
> only done a deep dive into SQIsign and SPHINCS+, and I will acknowledge the
> readiness levels between those two are presently worlds apart.
>
> I think FALCON is what has the smallest pubkey + sig size for
> hash-and-sign lattice-based schemes. So I think it's worth reworking the
> BIP to see what has the smallest generation / validation time and pubkey +
> size space for the main post-quantum scheme. At least for dilthium, falcon,
> sphincs+ and SQISign. For an hypothetical witness discount, a v2 P2QRH
> could be always be moved in a very template annex tag / field.
>
> > Also, do you think it's of any concern to use HASH160 instead of HASH256
> in the output script? I think it's fine for a cryptographic commitment
> since it's simply a hash of a hash (MD160 of SHA-256).
>
> See literature on quantum attacks on bitcoin in the reference of the paper
> you quote ("The impact of hardware specifications on reaching quantum
> advantage in the fault tolerant regime") for a discussion on Grover's
> search algorithm.
>
> > I'm not sure I fully understand this, but even more practically, as
> mentioned in the BIP, value can simply be kept in P2WPKH outputs, ideally
> with a value of fewer than 50
> > coins per address, and when funds ever need to be spent, the>
> transaction is signed and submitted out of band to a trusted mining pool,
> ideally one that does KYC, so it's
> > known which individual miners get to see the public key before it's
> mined. It's not perfect, since this relies on exogenou> s security
> assumptions, which is why P2QRH is
> > proposed.
>
> Again, the paper you're referencing ("The impact of hardware
> specifications on reaching quantum advantage...") is analyzing the
> performance of quantum advantage under
> 2 dimensions, namely space and time. My observation is in Bitcoin we have
> an additional dimension, "coin scarcity" that can be leveraged to build
> defense of address
> spends in face of quantum attacks.
>
> Namely you can introduce an artifical "witness-stack size scale ladder" in
> pseudo-bitcoin script: OP_SIZE <1000> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_DROP ...checksig...
> I have not verified it works well on bitcoin core though this script
> should put the burden on the quantum attacker to have enough bitcoin amount
> available to burn in on-chain fees in witness size to break a P2WPKH.
>
>
> > ideally with a value of fewer than 50 coins per address, and when funds
> ever need to be spent, the transaction is signed and submitted out of band
> to a trusted mining pool, ideally
> > one that does KYC, so it's known which individual > miners get to see
> the public key before it's mined. It's not perfect, since this relies on
> exogenous security assumptions, which is
> > why P2QRH is proposed.
>
> The technical issue if you implement KYC for a mining pool you're
> increasing your DoS surface and this could be exploited by competing
> miners. A more reasonable security model can be to have miner coinbase
> pubkeys being used to commit to the "seen-in-mempool" spends and from then
> build "hand wawy" fraud proofs that a miner is quantum attacking you're
> P2WSH spends at pubkey reveal time during transaction relay.
>
> Best,
> Antoine
>
> ots hash: 1ad818955bbf0c5468847c00c2974ddb5cf609d630523622bfdb27f1f0dc0b30
> Le lundi 17 juin 2024 à 23:25:25 UTC+1, hunter a écrit :
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA256
>
> On 2024-06-16 19:31, Antoine Riard <antoin...@gmail•com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Hunter Beast,I think any post-quantum upgrade signature algorithm
> upgrade proposal would grandly benefit to haveShor's based practical
> attacks far more defined in the Bitcoin context. As soon you start to talk
> aboutquantum computers there is no such thing as a "quantum computer"
> though a wide array of architecturesbased on a range of technologies to
> encode qubits on nanoscale physical properties.
> >
> Good point. I can write a section in the BIP Motivation or Security
> section about how an attack might take place practically, and the potential
> urgency of such an attack.
>
> I was thinking of focusing on the IBM Quantum System Two, mention how it
> can be scaled, and that although it might be quite limited, if running
> Shor's variant for a sufficient amount of time, above a certain minimum
> threshold of qubits, it might be capable of decrypting the key to an
> address within one year. I base this on the estimate provided in a study by
> the Sussex Centre for Quantum Technologies, et. al [1]. They provide two
> figures, 317M qubits to decrypt in one hour, 13M qubits to decrypt in one
> day. It would seem it scales roughly linearly, and so extrapolating it
> further, 36,000 qubits would be needed to decrypt an address within one
> year. However, the IBM Heron QPU turned out to have a gate time 100x less
> than was estimated in 2022, and so it might be possible to make do with
> even fewer qubits still within that timeframe. With only 360 qubits,
> barring algorithmic overhead such as for circuit memory, it might be
> possible to decrypt a single address within a year. That might sound like a
> lot, but being able to accomplish that at all would be significant, almost
> like a Chicago Pile moment, proving something in practice that was
> previously only thought theoretically possible for the past 3 decades. And
> it's only downhill from there...
> >
> > This is not certain that any Shor's algorithm variant works smoothly
> independently of the quantum computerarchitecture considered (e.g gate
> frequency, gate infidelity, cooling energy consumption) and I think it'san
> interesting open game-theory problem if you can concentrate a sufficiant
> amount of energy before anycoin owner moves them in consequence (e.g seeing
> a quantum break in the mempool and reacting with a counter-spend).
> >
> It should be noted that P2PK keys still hold millions of bitcoin, and
> those encode the entire public key for everyone to see for all time. Thus,
> early QC attacks won't need to consider the complexities of the mempool.
> >
> > In my opinion, one of the last time the subject was addressed on the
> mailing list, the description of the state of the quantum computer field
> was not realistic and get into risk characterization hyperbole talking
> about "super-exponential rate" (when indeed there is no empirical
> realization that distinct theoretical advance on quantum capabilities can
> be combined with each other) [1].
> >
> I think it's time to revisit these discussions given IBM's progress.
> They've published a two videos in particular that are worth watching; their
> keynote from December of last year [2], and their roadmap update from just
> last month [3].
> >
> > On your proposal, there is an immediate observation which comes to mind,
> namely why not using one of the algorithm(dilthium, sphincs+, falcon) which
> has been through the 3 rounds of NIST cryptanalysis. Apart of the signature
> size,which sounds to be smaller, in a network of full-nodes any PQ
> signature algorithm should have reasonable verificationperformances.
> >
> I'm supportive of this consideration. FALCON might be a good substitute,
> and maybe it can be upgraded to HAWK for even better performance depending
> on how much time there is. According to the BIP, FALCON signatures are ~10x
> larger than Schnorr signatures, so this will of course make the transaction
> more expensive, but we also must remember, these signatures will be going
> into the witness, which already receives a 4x discount. Perhaps the
> discount could be increased further someday to fit more transactions into
> blocks, but this will also likely result in more inscriptions filling
> unused space also, which permanently increases the burden of running an
> archive node. Due to the controversy such a change could bring, I would
> rather any increases in the witness discount be excluded from future
> activation discussions, so as to be considered separately, even if it
> pertains to an increase in P2QRH transaction size.
>
> Do you think it's worth reworking the BIP to use FALCON signatures? I've
> only done a deep dive into SQIsign and SPHINCS+, and I will acknowledge the
> readiness levels between those two are presently worlds apart.
>
> Also, do you think it's of any concern to use HASH160 instead of HASH256
> in the output script? I think it's fine for a cryptographic commitment
> since it's simply a hash of a hash (MD160 of SHA-256).
> >
> > Lastly, there is a practical defensive technique that can be implemented
> today by coin owners to protect in face ofhyptothetical quantum
> adversaries. Namely setting spending scripts to request an artificially
> inflated witness stack,as the cost has to be burden by the spender. I think
> one can easily do that with OP_DUP and OP_GREATERTHAN and a bitof stack
> shuffling. While the efficiency of this technique is limited by the max
> consensus size of the script stack(`MAX_STACK_SIZE`) and the max consensus
> size of stack element (`MAX_SCRIPT_ELEMENT_SIZE`), this adds an
> additional"scarce coins" pre-requirement on the quantum adversarise to
> succeed. Shor's algorithm is only defined under theclassic ressources of
> computational complexity, time and space.
> >
> I'm not sure I fully understand this, but even more practically, as
> mentioned in the BIP, value can simply be kept in P2WPKH outputs, ideally
> with a value of fewer than 50 coins per address, and when funds ever need
> to be spent, the transaction is signed and submitted out of band to a
> trusted mining pool, ideally one that does KYC, so it's known which
> individual miners get to see the public key before it's mined. It's not
> perfect, since this relies on exogenous security assumptions, which is why
> P2QRH is proposed.
> >
> > Best,Antoine
> > [1] https://freicoin.substack.com/p/why-im-against-taproot
> >
>
> I'm grateful you took the time to review the BIP and offer your detailed
> insights.
>
> [1] “The impact of hardware specifications on reaching quantum advantage
> in the fault tolerant regime,” 2022 -
> https://pubs.aip.org/avs/aqs/article/4/1/013801/2835275/The-impact-of-hardware-specifications-on-reaching
> [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De2IlWji8Ck
> [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5aIx79OTps
>
> >
> >
> > Le vendredi 14 juin 2024 à 15:30:54 UTC+1, Hunter Beast a écrit :
> >
> > > Good points. I like your suggestion for a SPHINCS+, just due to how
> mature it is in comparison to SQIsign. It's already in its third round and
> has several standards-compliant implementations, and it has an actual
> specification rather than just a research paper. One thing to consider is
> that NIST-I round 3 signatures are 982 bytes in size, according to what I
> was able to find in the documents hosted by the SPHINCS website.
> > >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20230711000109if_/http://sphincs.org/data/sphincs+-round3-submission-nist.zip
> > >
> > > One way to handle this is to introduce this as a separate address type
> than SQIsign. That won't require OP_CAT, and I do want to keep this soft
> fork limited in scope. If SQIsign does become significantly broken, in this
> hopefully far future scenario, I might be supportive of an increase in the
> witness discount.
> > >
> > > Also, I've made some additional changes based on your feedback on X.
> You can review them here if you so wish:
> > >
> https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/pull/5/files?short_path=917a32a#diff-917a32a71b69bf62d7c85dfb13d520a0340a30a2889b015b82d36411ed45e754
> > >
> > >
> > > On Friday, June 14, 2024 at 8:15:29 AM UTC-6 Pierre-Luc
> Dallaire-Demers wrote:
> > > > SQIsign is blockchain friendly but also very new, I would recommend
> adding a hash-based backup key in case an attack on SQIsign is found in the
> future (recall that SIDH broke over the span of a weekend
> https://eprint.iacr.org/2022/975.pdf).
> > > > Backup keys can be added in the form of a Merkle tree where one
> branch would contain the SQIsign public key and the other the public key of
> the recovery hash-based scheme. For most transactions it would only add one
> bit to specify the SQIsign branch.
> > > > The hash-based method could be Sphincs+, which is standardized by
> NIST but requires adding extra code, or Lamport, which is not standardized
> but can be verified on-chain with OP-CAT.
> > > >
> > > > On Sunday, June 9, 2024 at 12:07:16 p.m. UTC-4 Hunter Beast wrote:
> > > > > The motivation for this BIP is to provide a concrete proposal for
> adding quantum resistance to Bitcoin. We will need to pick a signature
> algorithm, implement it, and have it ready in event of quantum emergency.
> There will be time to adopt it. Importantly, this first step is a more
> substantive answer to those with concerns beyond, "quantum computers may
> pose a threat, but we likely don't have to worry about that for a long
> time". Bitcoin development and activation is slow, so it's important that
> those with low time preference start discussing this as a serious
> possibility sooner rather than later. This is meant to be the first in a
> series of BIPs regarding a hypothetical "QuBit" soft fork. The BIP is
> intended to propose concrete solutions, even if they're early and
> incomplete, so that Bitcoin developers are aware of the existence of these
> solutions and their potential. This is just a rough draft and not the
> finished BIP. I'd like to validate the approach and hear if I should
> continue working on it, whether serious changes are needed, or if this
> truly isn't a worthwhile endeavor right now.
> > > > >
> > > > > The BIP can be found here:
> > > > > https://github.com/cryptoquick/bips/blob/p2qrh/bip-p2qrh.mediawiki
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your time.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-08-15 5:25 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 9+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2024-06-08 21:04 [bitcoindev] " Hunter Beast
2024-06-14 13:51 ` [bitcoindev] " Pierre-Luc Dallaire-Demers
2024-06-14 14:28 ` Hunter Beast
2024-06-17 1:07 ` Antoine Riard
2024-06-17 20:27 ` hunter
2024-07-13 1:34 ` Antoine Riard
2024-08-06 17:37 ` Hunter Beast
2024-08-15 5:05 ` Hunter Beast [this message]
2024-08-22 6:20 ` Antoine Riard
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