From: Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr•org>
To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] BIP 322 use case
Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 10:50:12 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <b7861fc2-d980-4c3a-a472-ea7aead01692@dashjr.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <5fcc4168-b4fd-4efd-b11c-6bbf852871ccn@googlegroups.com>
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Addresses are not tied to UTXOs. A proof-of-funds would only ever be
proving a numeric amount, not an address. While the proof would
necessarily use UTXOs behind-the-scenes, the signature would not be
committing to those specific UTXOs being the property of the
message-signer; this property is necessary for plausible deniability as
well as hot/cold wallet separation (multiple users could have signed
messages using the same UTXOs, yet reflecting distinct bitcoin claims).
Proof-of-sender, on the other hand, would make a claim to have sent a
specific txid and output index. Where this gets fairly complicated is
that it's somewhat important to have a mechanism that is compatible with
coinjoins, and without requiring the coinjoin participants to keep in
contact after the transaction is formed. It should able be compatible
with signing for transactions sent without preparation to sign messages
later. Ultimately, this requires delegation.
And since it wouldn't be great to be able to distinguish between
delegated and non-delegated, probably everything should just always be
delegated (perhaps to a deterministic keypair in some scenarios).
There's also potentially a use case for accepting an opcode rejects on
mainnet as invalid, so tapscripts can commit to sign-only script paths.
One thing all the current message signing standards lack is some kind of
magic heading to identify what they are, like bech32's "bc1" prefix.
This would be a trivial addition rather than trying to decode signatures
N different ways and seeing which verify.
I do agree being able to, at least internally, convert to/from PSBTs
would improve compatibility significantly. This was the approach I aimed
for when I tried to tackle it a few months ago. One limitation with
PSBTs is that each input needs non-witness and/or witness input data -
repeatedly, if multiple of the same transaction's outputs are used as
inputs. To address that, I was planning to support having them refer
back to previous inputs' data.
Hope all this helps, if someone wants to pick up the task...
Luke
On 5/5/24 08:09, Ali Sherief wrote:
> > But the feature with much higher demand is proof-of-funds and
> proof-of-sender, which BIP322 began to address, but turns out to be
> much more complicated than it seems at face value (I recently looked
> into this again as part of relaunching OCEAN).
>
> BIP322 is trying to figure two things: Collecting an authentic UTXO
> set for a given list of addresses, and actually making the signed
> message. It appears that only the latter of the two has been solved.
>
> I think one of the things that would help unstuck this is an RPC for
> getting the UTXO set of a list of addresses. I am aware that this is
> already possible with some SPV implementations, but to have the
> functionality directly in Core would make this BIP more viable.
>
> > That being said, BIP322 as-is has already been adopted by at least
> some wallets, despite its unfinished state. So if someone were to pick
> up this task, it would probably need to be done as a new BIP
>
> Probably the best solution would be to make a split, where the BIP322
> draft as it currently is can be used unofficially and then programmed
> into software that needs it, and then you can have the actual
> authentication/contract mechanism constructed in a new BIP. Actually,
> we already have some of the framework for this in Core, since PSBTs
> can be used to distribute and sign "message contracts". All that's
> needed is an RPC to get the UTXO set and another to create an unsigned
> template transaction for the message.
>
> -Ali
>
> On Saturday, May 4, 2024 at 12:14:53 AM UTC Luke Dashjr wrote:
>
> KYC is not an intended use case for signed messages, and attempts
> to use it for that are probably one of the bigger reasons BIP322
> has not moved further - most people do not want to encourage nor
> enable such nonsense. If you absolutely must only allow withdrawls
> to the user's own address, I would suggest taking a more
> traditional approach of asking the user to affirm it with a
> checkbox. (This is not legal advice, but it seems crazy to demand
> cryptographic proof from Bitcoin companies, when traditional
> finance is okay with a mere attestation)
>
> Technically speaking, however, the biggest hurdle is that there is
> very little apparent interest in the one limited use case it *is*
> meant for: agreeing to a contract before funds are sent. To a
> limited extent, a secondary use case has been simply using Bitcoin
> addresses as a kind of login mechanism (eg, #Bitcoin-OTC and
> OCEAN). But the feature with much higher demand is proof-of-funds
> and proof-of-sender, which BIP322 began to address, but turns out
> to be much more complicated than it seems at face value (I
> recently looked into this again as part of relaunching OCEAN).
> That being said, BIP322 as-is has already been adopted by at least
> some wallets, despite its unfinished state. So if someone were to
> pick up this task, it would probably need to be done as a new BIP. :/
>
> Luke
>
>
> On 5/3/24 19:53, ProfEduStream wrote:
>>
>> Hey,
>>
>> As a Bitcoin association, we're currently facing an issue because
>> we're unable to sign an address with our multi-sig wallet.
>> After conducting some research, I came across BIP322 in these
>> threads:https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5408898.0 &
>> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1347
>>
>> _Explanation_:
>>
>> As a Bitcoin association, we offer membership to everyone for a
>> few thousand sats per year. To facilitate this process, we
>> utilize "Swiss Bitcoin Pay". It's an application that allows us
>> to easily manage our accounting. Additionally, we onboard
>> merchants with this app because of its user-friendly interface
>> and self-custodial capabilities, making it very convenient. The
>> accounting features are also highly beneficial.
>>
>> To utilize this application in a self-custodial manner, users
>> need to paste a Bitcoin address on the "Swiss Bitcoin Pay"
>> dashboard and then sign a message with this address. This serves
>> as a "Proof-of-Ownership" and is a legal requirement in some
>> regulated countries. "Swiss Bitcoin Pay" is not the only
>> application that requires signing a message as a
>> "Proof-of-Ownership". Peach, a non-KYC P2P Bitcoin application,
>> is another example.
>>
>> Given our goal to decentralize our treasury, we naturally opt for
>> a multi-sig wallet, similar to many companies. However, as you
>> know, BIP 322 hasn't been pushed and it's currently impossible to
>> sign a message with a multi-sig wallet.
>>
>>
>> _Conclusion_:
>>
>> I'm unsure why BIP322 hasn't been pushed or addressed in the past
>> few months/years, but I want to highlight its necessity.
>> Additionally, I hope that this comment sheds light on a
>> deficiency in our Bitcoin ecosystem, and I trust that further
>> improvements will be made to enable people to sign a message with
>> a multi-sig wallet.
>>
>>
>> I'm available to assist if needed.
>>
>> @ProfEduStream
>>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2024-05-05 14:54 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 5+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2024-05-03 23:53 ProfEduStream
2024-05-04 0:11 ` Luke Dashjr
2024-05-05 12:09 ` Ali Sherief
2024-05-05 14:50 ` Luke Dashjr [this message]
2024-05-10 17:47 ` Prof EduStream
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