From: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail•com>
To: Jeremy <jlrubin@mit•edu>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>,
lightning-dev <lightning-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] [Pre-BIP] Fee Accounts
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:34:35 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <erAXod9aNdpQ3eMQQsfHwcaCe0S0rGU1Z9VnDy2yxlywBaSdaMJOEZ0XnGbIMSjRm9e3M4rJCwQuIgoNzrvw57e3jYxvi1cZPTeFYCjZ9vU=@protonmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAD5xwhgEeTETburW=OBgHNe_V1kk8o06TDQLiLgdfmP2AEVuPg@mail.gmail.com>
Good morning Jeremy,
> opt-in or explicit tagging of fee account is a bad design IMO.
>
> As pointed out by James O'Beirne in the other email, having an explicit key required means you have to pre-plan.... suppose you're building a vault meant to distribute funds over many years, do you really want a *specific* precommitted key you have to maintain? What happens to your ability to bump should it be compromised (which may be more likely if it's intended to be a hot-wallet function for bumping).
>
> Furthermore, it's quite often the case that someone might do a transaction that pays you that is low fee that you want to bump but they choose to opt-out... then what? It's better that you should always be able to fee bump.
Good point.
For the latter case, CPFP would work and already exists.
**Unless** you are doing something complicated and offchain-y and involves relative locktimes, of course.
Once could point out as well that Peter Todd gave just a single example, OpenTimeStamps, for this, and OpenTimeStamps is not the only user of the Bitcoin blockchain.
So we can consider: who benefits and who suffers, and does the benefit to the former outweigh the detriment of the latter?
It seems to me that the necromancing attack mostly can *only* target users of RBF that might want to *additionally* add outputs (or in the case of OTS, commitments) when RBF-ing.
For example, a large onchain-paying entity might lowball an onchain transaction for a few withdrawals, then as more withdrawals come in, bump up their feerate and add more withdrawals to the RBF-ed transaction.
Such an entity might prefer to confirm the latest RBF-ed transaction, as if an earlier transaction (which does not include some other withdrawals requested later) is necromanced, they would need to make an *entire* *other* transaction (which may be costlier!) to fulfill pending withdrawal requests.
However, to my knowledge, there is no actual entity that *currently* acts this way (I do have some sketches for a wallet that can support this behavior, but it gets *complicated* due to having to keep track of reorgs as well... sigh).
In particular, I expect that many users do not really make outgoing payments often enough that they would actually benefit from such a wallet feature.
Instead, they will generally make one payment at a time, or plan ahead and pay several in a batch at once, and even if they RBF, they would just keep the same set of outputs and just reduce their change output.
For such low-scale users, a rando third-party necromancing their old transactions could only make them happy, thus this nuisance attack cannot be executed.
We could also point out that this is really a nuisance attack and not an economic-theft attack.
The attacker cannot gain, and can only pay in order to impose costs on somebody else.
Rationally, the only winning move is not to play.
So --- has anyone actually implemented a Bitcoin wallet that has such a feature (i.e. make a lowball send transaction now, then you can add another send later and if the previous send transaction is unconfirmed, RBF it with a new transaction that has the previous send and the current send) and if so, can you open-source the code and show me?
Regards,
ZmnSCPxj
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-02-20 16:34 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 44+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-01-01 20:04 [bitcoin-dev] " Jeremy
2022-01-18 16:12 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-01-18 17:43 ` Jeremy
2022-01-19 2:37 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-01-19 2:51 ` Jeremy
2022-01-19 4:53 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-01-19 7:32 ` Jeremy
2022-01-19 16:51 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-01-19 20:08 ` Jeremy
2022-01-20 5:23 ` Billy Tetrud
2022-02-10 6:58 ` Peter Todd
2022-02-10 8:08 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-18 23:50 ` Peter Todd
2022-02-19 0:38 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-19 9:39 ` Peter Todd
2022-02-19 17:20 ` [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] " darosior
2022-02-19 20:35 ` Peter Todd
2022-02-20 2:24 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-20 2:39 ` ZmnSCPxj
[not found] ` <590cf52920040c9cf7517b219624bbb5@willtech.com.au>
2022-02-20 14:24 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-02-20 16:29 ` Jeremy Rubin
[not found] ` <CAD5xwhgEeTETburW=OBgHNe_V1kk8o06TDQLiLgdfmP2AEVuPg@mail.gmail.com>
2022-02-20 16:34 ` ZmnSCPxj [this message]
2022-02-20 16:45 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-02-20 16:29 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Jeremy Rubin
2022-04-10 19:32 ` Peter Todd
2022-04-11 13:18 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-04-15 14:52 ` Peter Todd
2022-04-17 20:57 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-04-28 12:15 ` Peter Todd
2022-05-02 15:59 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-06-14 11:12 ` [bitcoin-dev] Why OpenTimestamps does not "linearize" its transactions Peter Todd
2022-06-14 11:39 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-14 11:53 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-14 12:28 ` rot13maxi
2022-06-14 12:45 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-14 13:55 ` Bryan Bishop
2022-06-14 15:06 ` digital vagabond
2022-06-14 15:34 ` Peter Todd
2022-06-14 17:15 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-14 20:33 ` Andrew Poelstra
2022-06-15 1:16 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-15 1:21 ` Undiscussed Horrific Abuse, One Victim of Many
2022-06-19 11:04 ` Peter Todd
2022-06-14 15:22 ` Peter Todd
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