Re: [bitcoin-dev] Ordinals BIP PR

From: Luke Dashjr <luke@dashjr•org>
To: Olaoluwa Osuntokun <laolu32@gmail•com>,
	Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
	<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Ordinals BIP PR
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 20:15:04 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <f6c909b3-6851-f26d-3b30-a65232c1cc61@dashjr.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAO3Pvs_uUtCfhayU=3LCtpNGtkcDr=H0AM65bhNJcTMuBzWn_w@mail.gmail.com>

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Seems like a "solution" looking for a problem which doesn't actually 
exist. And not even a good "solution" for that - might as well not have 
BIP number at all, if they're not going to be usefully assigned. What we 
have now is working fine aside from a few trolls once in a while.

On 10/24/23 18:56, Olaoluwa Osuntokun wrote:
> TL;DR: let's just use an automated system to assign BIP numbers, so we can
> spend time on more impactful things.
>
> IIUC, one the primary roles of the dedicated BIP maintainers is just 
> to hand
> out BIP numbers for documents. Supposedly with this privilege, the BIP
> maintainer is able to tastefully assign related BIPs to consecutive 
> numbers,
> and also reserve certain BIP number ranges for broad categories, like 3xx
> for p2p changes (just an example).
>
> To my knowledge, the methodology for such BIP number selection isn't
> published anywhere, and is mostly arbitrary. As motioned in this thread,
> some perceive this manual process as a gatekeeping mechanism, and often
> ascribe favoritism as the reason why PR X got a number immediately, 
> but PR Y
> has waited N months w/o an answer.
>
> Every few years we go through an episode where someone is rightfully upset
> that they haven't been assigned a BIP number after following the requisite
> process.  Most recently, another BIP maintainer was appointed, with 
> the hope
> that the second maintainer would help to alleviate some of the subjective
> load of the position.  Fast forward to this email thread, and it doesn't
> seem like adding more BIP maintainers will actually help with the issue of
> BIP number assignment.
>
> Instead, what if we just removed the subjective human element from the
> process, and switched to using PR numbers to assign BIPs? Now instead of
> attempting to track down a BIP maintainer at the end of a potentially
> involved review+iteration period, PRs are assigned BIP numbers as soon as
> they're opened and we have one less thing to bikeshed and gatekeep.
>
> One down side of this is that assuming the policy is adopted, we'll sorta
> sky rocket the BIP number space. At the time of writing of this email, the
> next PR number looks to be 1508. That doesn't seem like a big deal to me,
> but we could offset that by some value, starting at the highest currently
> manually assigned BIP number. BIP numbers would no longer always be
> contiguous, but that's sort of already the case.
>
> There's also the matter of related BIPs, like the segwit series (BIPs 141,
> 142, 143, 144, and 145). For these, we can use a suffix scheme to indicate
> the BIP lineage. So if BIP 141 was the first PR, then BIP 142 was opened
> later, the OP can declare the BIP 142 is BIP 141.2 or BIP 141-2. I don't
> think it would be too difficult to find a workable scheme.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -- Laolu
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 11:35 AM Luke Dashjr via bitcoin-dev 
> <bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>     Everything standardized between Bitcoin software is eligible to be
>     and
>     should be a BIP. I completely disagree with the claim that it's
>     used for
>     too many things.
>
>     SLIPs exist for altcoin stuff. They shouldn't be used for things
>     related
>     to Bitcoin.
>
>     BOLTs also shouldn't have ever been a separate process and should
>     really
>     just get merged into BIPs. But at this point, that will probably take
>     quite a bit of effort, and obviously cooperation and active
>     involvement
>     from the Lightning development community.
>
>     Maybe we need a 3rd BIP editor. Both Kalle and myself haven't had
>     time
>     to keep up. There are several PRs far more important than Ordinals
>     nonsense that need to be triaged and probably merged.
>
>     The issue with Ordinals is that it is actually unclear if it's
>     eligible
>     to be a BIP at all, since it is an attack on Bitcoin rather than a
>     proposed improvement. There is a debate on the PR whether the
>     "technically unsound, ..., or not in keeping with the Bitcoin
>     philosophy." or "must represent a net improvement." clauses (BIP
>     2) are
>     relevant. Those issues need to be resolved somehow before it could be
>     merged. I have already commented to this effect and given my own
>     opinions on the PR, and simply pretending the issues don't exist
>     won't
>     make them go away. (Nor is it worth the time of honest people to help
>     Casey resolve this just so he can further try to harm/destroy
>     Bitcoin.)
>
>     Luke
>
>
>     On 10/23/23 13:43, Andrew Poelstra via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>     > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 03:35:30PM +0000, Peter Todd via
>     bitcoin-dev wrote:
>     >> I have _not_ requested a BIP for OpenTimestamps, even though it
>     is of much
>     >> wider relevance to Bitcoin users than Ordinals by virtue of the
>     fact that much
>     >> of the commonly used software, including Bitcoin Core, is
>     timestamped with OTS.
>     >> I have not, because there is no need to document every single
>     little protocol
>     >> that happens to use Bitcoin with a BIP.
>     >>
>     >> Frankly we've been using BIPs for too many things. There is no
>     avoiding the act
>     >> that BIP assignment and acceptance is a mark of approval for a
>     protocol. Thus
>     >> we should limit BIP assignment to the minimum possible:
>     _extremely_ widespread
>     >> standards used by the _entire_ Bitcoin community, for the core
>     mission of
>     >> Bitcoin.
>     >>
>     > This would eliminate most wallet-related protocols e.g. BIP69
>     (sorted
>     > keys), ypubs, zpubs, etc. I don't particularly like any of those
>     but if
>     > they can't be BIPs then they'd need to find another spec repository
>     > where they wouldn't be lost and where updates could be tracked.
>     >
>     > The SLIP repo could serve this purpose, and I think e.g. SLIP39
>     is not a BIP
>     > in part because of perceived friction and exclusivity of the
>     BIPs repo.
>     > But I'm not thrilled with this situation.
>     >
>     > In fact, I would prefer that OpenTimestamps were a BIP :).
>     >
>     >> It's notable that Lightning is _not_ standardized via the BIP
>     process. I think
>     >> that's a good thing. While it's arguably of wide enough use to
>     warrent BIPs,
>     >> Lightning doesn't need the approval of Core maintainers, and
>     using their
>     >> separate BOLT process makes that clear.
>     >>
>     > Well, LN is a bit special because it's so big that it can have
>     its own
>     > spec repo which is actively maintained and used.
>     >
>     > While it's technically true that BIPs need "approval of Core
>     maintainers"
>     > to be merged, the text of BIP2 suggests that this approval
>     should be a
>     > functionary role and be pretty-much automatic. And not require
>     the BIP
>     > be relevant or interesting or desireable to Core developers.
>     >
>     >
>     >
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