* [bitcoin-dev] Question- must every mining rig attempt every block?
@ 2021-10-05 12:23 Nathan T Alexander
2021-10-05 14:41 ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-10-05 14:42 ` Ruben Somsen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: Nathan T Alexander @ 2021-10-05 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: bitcoin-dev
For purposes of conserving energy, couldn't each mining rig have some
non-gameable attribute which would be used to calculate if a block would
be accepted by that rig?
Don't the mining rigs have to be able to identify themselves to the
network somehow, in order to claim their block reward? Could their
bitcoin network ID be used as a non-gameable attribute?
Essentially a green light / red light system. In order for a block to be
accepted by the network, it must have all attributes of a successful
block today, and it must also have come from a rig that had a green light.
Perhaps hash some data from the last successful block, along with the
miners non-gameable attribute, and if it's below a certain number set by
algorithm, the miner gets a green light to race to produce a valid block.
Nathan Alexander
Arlington, TX
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Question- must every mining rig attempt every block?
2021-10-05 12:23 [bitcoin-dev] Question- must every mining rig attempt every block? Nathan T Alexander
@ 2021-10-05 14:41 ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-10-05 14:42 ` Ruben Somsen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: ZmnSCPxj @ 2021-10-05 14:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Nathan T Alexander, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
Good morning Nathan,
> For purposes of conserving energy, couldn't each mining rig have some
> non-gameable attribute which would be used to calculate if a block would
> be accepted by that rig?
>
> Don't the mining rigs have to be able to identify themselves to the
> network somehow, in order to claim their block reward? Could their
> bitcoin network ID be used as a non-gameable attribute?
They are "identified" by the address that is on the coinbase output.
There is nothing preventing a *single* miner having *multiple* addresses, in much the same way that a *single* HODLer is not prevented from having *multiple* addresses.
>
> Essentially a green light / red light system. In order for a block to be
> accepted by the network, it must have all attributes of a successful
> block today, and it must also have come from a rig that had a green light.
Since a miner can have multiple addresses, the miners can game this by simply grinding on *which* of their multiple addresses gets the green light.
That grinding is no more different in quality than grinding the block hash.
Thus, you just move proof-of-work elsewhere and make it harder to see, not reduce it.
Worse, *identifying* miners reduces the important anonymity property of mining.
With non-anonymous mining, it is much easier for states to co-opt large mines, since they are identifiable, and states can target larger miners.
Thus, miners ***must*** use multiple addresses as a simple protection against state co-option.
>
> Perhaps hash some data from the last successful block, along with the
> miners non-gameable attribute, and if it's below a certain number set by
> algorithm, the miner gets a green light to race to produce a valid block.
The power consumption of proof-of-work ***is not a problem***, it is instead the solution against state co-option.
If you reduce the power consumption, it becomes easier for states to simply purchase and co-opt mines and attack the system, since it is easier to muster the power consumption and outright 51% Bitcoin.
The power consumption is an important security parameter, ***even more important than raw hashes-per-second***, since hashes-per-second will inevitably rise anyway even with constant power consumption.
It should always remain economically infeasible to 51% Bitcoin, otherwise Bitcoin will ***die*** and all your HODLings in it.
Regards,
ZmnSCPxj
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Question- must every mining rig attempt every block?
2021-10-05 12:23 [bitcoin-dev] Question- must every mining rig attempt every block? Nathan T Alexander
2021-10-05 14:41 ` ZmnSCPxj
@ 2021-10-05 14:42 ` Ruben Somsen
2021-10-08 15:08 ` Billy Tetrud
1 sibling, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Ruben Somsen @ 2021-10-05 14:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion, Nathan T Alexander
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Hi Nathan,
That's a fair question, but note that we've already had a bunch of "green
mining" related posts a few months ago, so I suspect you'll be able to find
many criticisms to this idea in the following thread:
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-May/018937.html
It also looks like you'll be able to find some related answers on Bitcoin
Stack Exchange:
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/106308/decreasing-energy-consumption-of-bitcoins-pow-with-paired-mining-rounds
And generally speaking these types of discussions don't end up being very
fruitful for bitcoin-dev, because these are the types of changes that are
unlikely to ever be seriously considered for Bitcoin.
Cheers,
Ruben
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 4:09 PM Nathan T Alexander via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> For purposes of conserving energy, couldn't each mining rig have some
> non-gameable attribute which would be used to calculate if a block would
> be accepted by that rig?
>
> Don't the mining rigs have to be able to identify themselves to the
> network somehow, in order to claim their block reward? Could their
> bitcoin network ID be used as a non-gameable attribute?
>
> Essentially a green light / red light system. In order for a block to be
> accepted by the network, it must have all attributes of a successful
> block today, and it must also have come from a rig that had a green light.
>
> Perhaps hash some data from the last successful block, along with the
> miners non-gameable attribute, and if it's below a certain number set by
> algorithm, the miner gets a green light to race to produce a valid block.
>
> Nathan Alexander
>
> Arlington, TX
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: [bitcoin-dev] Question- must every mining rig attempt every block?
2021-10-05 14:42 ` Ruben Somsen
@ 2021-10-08 15:08 ` Billy Tetrud
0 siblings, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: Billy Tetrud @ 2021-10-08 15:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ruben Somsen, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion; +Cc: Nathan T Alexander
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Proof of stake systems attempt to create red light - green light types of
things with non-gameable attributes (eg collaborative random numbers). This
can't be done with mining because mining is completely random - its not
possible to know which miner will mine a block. If it were, it wouldn't be
proof of work, but something else. What you describe sounds like proof of
identity, which isn't possible in a decentralized adversarial environment.
In fact, one of the primary achievements of the Proof of Work consensus
mechanism is to work around the Sybil issue, where (like ZmnSCPxj
mentioned) a single user can have many identities.
There can be hybrid systems that use both proof of work and proof of stake,
but my conclusion after having done a lot of research and thinking about it
([1]
<https://github.com/fresheneesz/quantificationOfConsensusProtocolSecurity>,
[2] <https://github.com/fresheneesz/proofOfTimeOwnership>) is that the
security mostly boils down to the weakest piece of the hybrid system, and
so its not very effective to have hybrid systems like you mentioned.
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 10:43 AM Ruben Somsen via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Hi Nathan,
>
> That's a fair question, but note that we've already had a bunch of "green
> mining" related posts a few months ago, so I suspect you'll be able to find
> many criticisms to this idea in the following thread:
>
>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-May/018937.html
>
> It also looks like you'll be able to find some related answers on Bitcoin
> Stack Exchange:
>
> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/106308/decreasing-energy-consumption-of-bitcoins-pow-with-paired-mining-rounds
>
> And generally speaking these types of discussions don't end up being very
> fruitful for bitcoin-dev, because these are the types of changes that are
> unlikely to ever be seriously considered for Bitcoin.
>
> Cheers,
> Ruben
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 4:09 PM Nathan T Alexander via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> For purposes of conserving energy, couldn't each mining rig have some
>> non-gameable attribute which would be used to calculate if a block would
>> be accepted by that rig?
>>
>> Don't the mining rigs have to be able to identify themselves to the
>> network somehow, in order to claim their block reward? Could their
>> bitcoin network ID be used as a non-gameable attribute?
>>
>> Essentially a green light / red light system. In order for a block to be
>> accepted by the network, it must have all attributes of a successful
>> block today, and it must also have come from a rig that had a green light.
>>
>> Perhaps hash some data from the last successful block, along with the
>> miners non-gameable attribute, and if it's below a certain number set by
>> algorithm, the miner gets a green light to race to produce a valid block.
>>
>> Nathan Alexander
>>
>> Arlington, TX
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
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2021-10-05 12:23 [bitcoin-dev] Question- must every mining rig attempt every block? Nathan T Alexander
2021-10-05 14:41 ` ZmnSCPxj
2021-10-05 14:42 ` Ruben Somsen
2021-10-08 15:08 ` Billy Tetrud
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