From: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail•com>
To: Bram Cohen <bram@chia•net>
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
<bitcoin-dev@lists•linuxfoundation.org>,
Anthony Towns <aj@erisian•com.au>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] bitcoin scripting and lisp
Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2022 14:30:34 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <lMd2d3ntj6T-VfDDZ0SHn7cUdWWeFFWO3sHolPwMTdRyGUMRY8JwtICT0vbNy9PPg-u_inUplQ-OvB-wKvXNkEUB17pXBhA7ZDwu9vxiRx0=@protonmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHUJnBBduZA9KgcYwEG7Zn3qPrBpnCRWukQpPzJJjpb3S933Ag@mail.gmail.com>
Good morning Bram,
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 7:06 PM ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail•com> wrote:
>
> > But cross-input signature aggregation is a nice-to-have we want for Bitcoin, and, to me, cross-input sigagg is not much different from cross-input puzzle/solution compression.
>
> Cross-input signature aggregation has a lot of headaches unless you're using BLS signatures, in which case you always aggregate everything all the time because it can be done after the fact noninteractively. In that case it makes sense to have a special aggregated signature which always comes with a transaction or block. But it might be a bit much to bundle both lisp and BLS support into one big glop.
You misunderstand my point.
I am not saying "we should add sigagg and lisp together!"
I am pointing out that:
* We want to save bytes by having multiple inputs of a transaction use the same single signature (i.e. sigagg).
is not much different from:
* We want to save bytes by having multiple inputs of a transaction use the same `scriptPubKey` template.
> > For example you might have multiple HTLCs, with mostly the same code except for details like who the acceptor and offerrer are, exact hash, and timelock, and you could claim multiple HTLCs in a single tx and feed the details separately but the code for the HTLC is common to all of the HTLCs.
> > You do not even need to come from the same protocol if multiple protocols use the same code for implementing HTLC.
>
> HTLCs, at least in Chia, have embarrassingly little code in them. Like, so little that there's almost nothing to compress.
In Bitcoin at least an HTLC has, if you remove the `OP_PUSH`es, by my count, 13 bytes.
If you have a bunch of HTLCs you want to claim, you can reduce your witness data by 13 bytes minus whatever number of bytes you need to indicate this.
That amounts to about 3 vbytes per HTLC, which can be significant enough to be worth it (consider that Taproot moving away from encoded signatures saves only 9 weight units per signature, i.e. about 2 vbytes).
Do note that PTLCs remain more space-efficient though, so forget about HTLCs and just use PTLCs.
>
> > This does not apply to current Bitcoin since we no longer accept a SCRIPT from the spender, we now have a witness stack.
>
> My mental model of Bitcoin is to pretend that segwit was always there and the separation of different sections of data is a semantic quibble.
This is not a semantic quibble --- `witness` contains only the equivalent of `OP_PUSH`es, while `scriptSig` can in theory contain non-`OP_PUSH` opcodes.
xref. `1 RETURN`.
As-is, with SegWit the spender no longer is able to provide any SCRIPT at all, but new opcodes may allow the spender to effectively inject any SCRIPT they want, once again, because `witness` data may now become code.
> But if they're fully baked into the scriptpubkey then they're opted into by the recipient and there aren't any weird surprises.
This is really what I kinda object to.
Yes, "buyer beware", but consider that as the covenant complexity increases, the probability of bugs, intentional or not, sneaking in, increases as well.
And a bug is really "a weird surprise" --- xref TheDAO incident.
This makes me kinda wary of using such covenant features at all, and if stuff like `SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT` or `OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY` are not added but must be reimplemented via a covenant feature, I would be saddened, as I now have to contend with the complexity of covenant features and carefully check that `SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT`/`OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY` were implemented correctly.
True I also still have to check the C++ source code if they are implemented directly as opcodes, but I can read C++ better than frikkin Bitcoin SCRIPT.
Not to mention that I now have to review both the (more complicated due to more general) covenant feature implementation, *and* the implementation of `SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT`/`OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY` in terms of the covenant feature.
Regards,
ZmnSCPxj
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-03-09 14:30 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 23+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <mailman.30513.1646355894.8511.bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
2022-03-07 6:26 ` Bram Cohen
2022-03-07 22:56 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-03-09 2:24 ` Bram Cohen
2022-03-08 1:27 ` Anthony Towns
2022-03-08 3:06 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-03-09 3:07 ` Bram Cohen
2022-03-09 14:30 ` ZmnSCPxj [this message]
2022-03-16 6:40 ` Bram Cohen
2022-03-16 15:09 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-03-11 4:46 ` Anthony Towns
2022-03-16 6:52 ` Bram Cohen
2022-03-16 14:54 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-03-19 17:34 ` Bram Cohen
2022-03-22 23:37 ` Anthony Towns
2022-03-09 2:54 ` Bram Cohen
2022-03-10 6:47 ` Anthony Towns
2022-03-16 6:45 ` Bram Cohen
2022-03-04 1:04 Anthony Towns
2022-03-04 23:10 ` ZmnSCPxj
[not found] ` <CAD5xwhiZx+dp46Gn23tQRKc5PgJHmaJ_HC-38VB5WdJjWVVc4g@mail.gmail.com>
2022-03-05 13:41 ` Jeremy Rubin
2022-03-05 20:10 ` Russell O'Connor
2022-03-05 23:20 ` ZmnSCPxj
2022-03-06 2:09 ` Russell O'Connor
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