--- Log opened Wed Aug 21 00:00:47 2019
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06:09 < elichai2> real_or_random: Hi, it looks like I got into github's beta CI, I hope i'll have time to play with it soon and i'll come back with updates :)
06:14 < real_or_random> oh that's cool. that'll also be interesting for core. I know someone there applied, too, not sure if he got in. maybe you could mention it in #bitcoin-core-dev too
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10:07 < elichai2> real_or_random: does that makes sense? `A trait for producing pointers that will always be valid in C. (assuming NULL pointer is a valid no-op)`
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14:32 < andytoshi> lol, was looking into the history of miniscript and found in http://gnusha.org/rust-bitcoin/2018-07-31.log
14:32 < andytoshi> 22:13 < andytoshi> well, no, if you have highly structured script templates you can get away with not really understanding script
15:04 < elichai2> WTF
15:04 < elichai2> `[2019-08-Cptr-null 18bc852] Add zst tests and some other parsing tests and updated /bin/bash: SecretKey::from_slice: command not found logic`
15:05 < elichai2> wat
15:10 < andytoshi> lol
15:10 < andytoshi> i assume you middle-clicked
15:10 < andytoshi> though how that wound up in your X buffer, i wonder
15:13 < elichai2> I remember that I wrote `SecretKey::from_slice` but I did it a bunch of times in the past without problems. weird
15:44 < andytoshi> re dependency breakage, i think dtolnay is correct that trying to change rust culture is ineffective and not a useful strategy
15:44 < andytoshi> so we probably need to push on getting MSRV fields into cargo somehow
15:45 < andytoshi> which may mean contributing code. i don't know, i can't access anything on discourse :/
15:47 < dpc> People from Rust community are saying that at least currently, there are no/very little backports to previous versions.
15:47 < dpc> So by sticking with previous version, you might expose yourself to bugs/security issues.
15:48 < andytoshi> this is a problem with every major version update already
15:49 < andytoshi> "force people to update things involuntarily even when this breaks their software" is a crazy argument to make
15:49 < andytoshi> but if the people saying this weer consistent, they'd try to tear down what little semver support we have
15:50 < dpc> I meant even backports of language/compiler fixes.
15:51 < dpc> I agree that breaking builds sucks and is taking it too an extreme, but rust-bitcoin trying to stick with older compiler vs rust community trying to stick with the most recent one is just an eternal battle, IMO.
15:51 < andytoshi> well, they also don't backport compiler breakage, so it evens out
15:52 < dpc> Wouldn't be maybe worthwile to work on mrust + trustless bootstrap to make it more reliable/easier? Isn't that the main reason for sticking with older versions?
15:52 < andytoshi> if there is an "eternal battle" where the cargo developers abuse their position to force updates on people who don't have the time or energy to vet it, then i'm out
15:52 < andytoshi> that's part of it
15:52 < andytoshi> the other is that new compilers represent unknown code and new bugs and uncertainties
15:53 < dpc> Test, test, test and then test some more.
15:53 < andytoshi> another is that you need to obtain it from somewhere, and trusting mozilla's pipeline every six weeks is not viable for many users
15:53 < andytoshi> test that your stuff hasn't broken in new and unpredictable ways unrelated to any of your own code?
15:54 < dpc> <andytoshi "test that your stuff hasn't brok"> Yeap. I mean - every time you bump the compiler version and stuff breaks, you know it was the compiler. You do have A vs B test.
15:55 < dpc> You don't even have to bump compiler version right after it was released. It's just sticking with super old (in Rust terms) version is a root of a problem.
15:55 < andytoshi> "super old" has been established as less than 8 months
15:55 < andytoshi> that's insane
15:55 < andytoshi> this adds so much pointless friction to rust development that it would be easier to use C++
15:56 < dpc> I agree about 8 months, I guess, but eventually people want to move on.
15:57 < andytoshi> fine. if they want to move on in ways that make their libraries incompatible with their downstream users they shuold signal that somehow
15:57 < andytoshi> for cargo to facilitate "just break shit unpreventably" is the worst solution
15:57 < dpc> Agreed. It sucks.
15:58 < andytoshi> it's also insane that you now have to trust moz and discourse to run code in your browser if you even want to talk to them
15:58 < dpc> BTW. Isn't it possible to emulate thie minimum rust version check with a crate?
15:58 < andytoshi> in what way?
15:59 < dpc> Couldn't one just have a public crate that is empty / has a build.rs or something?
15:59 < andytoshi> i don't understand
16:00 < dpc> I need to think about it. But basically there would be a crate `minrustsupport` and you would include it in your dependencies or something ...
16:01 < andytoshi> would you need cooperation from any of your dependencies' maintainers?
16:01 < dpc> Yeah. But if it would as easy as including a new, empty dependency, then I guess people wouldn't mind / could be pressured to use it. If it works.
16:02 < andytoshi> as near as i can tell many maintainers are actively hostile to this
16:04 < dpc> Are they? They can always bump the version and `cargo publish`. Nothing is blocking them and it's not a lot of work. The point is that downstream `cargo` would not automatically use newer versions.
16:04 < andytoshi> right now they just have to bump their crate version, and they won't do this
16:04 < andytoshi> major version*
16:06 < dpc> I think it is possible to do using fake crate ... One would basically release it with initially big major number. Like `mrcv = 100000.0.0`. Then every new compiler release, it would be released with a counter one less lower... :D
16:16 < elichai2> andytoshi: I actually wanted on the side to work a bit and contribute to cargo. But too many things on hand.
16:16 < elichai2> Though maybe in the future, and slowly pushing msvc stuff into cargo might be a good way (first by panicking than by actually resolving)
16:16 < andytoshi> that'd be awesome. but yeah, don't burn out :)
16:17 < andytoshi> dpc: i'm still not following ... how would this work for somebody who cared about msrv? how about somebody who didn't care?
16:17 < andytoshi> i'm not aware of any ordering of major versions in cargo
16:17 < elichai2> Heh, though this might be something that could be a breaking change (actual resolvement) I hope that if it ever gets in it can be activated before rust 2
16:17 < elichai2> (not sure if rust 2 is actually a real plan currently)
16:18 < elichai2> andytoshi: too much interesting stuff out there  :)
16:18 < andytoshi> i don't think rust 2 is real, i think it'll be rust 2021 :)
16:19 < andytoshi> and i think it's reasonable to expect that there will be a "rust 2018" ecosystem that doesn't break things the way we've seen, and which will use major version bumps to switch to rust 2021 and so on
16:19 < andytoshi> but from rust 2015 to rust 2018 was a messy transition, because rust 1.0 was so shitty
16:19 < andytoshi> like, basically nobody supports <1.15 because it doesn't have custom derive; there are a bunch of similarly crucial things in 1.20, 1.21, 1.22, 1.26
16:19 < andytoshi> then 1.31 had NLL i think
16:20 < andytoshi> so i don't blame people for agressively updating
16:20 < andytoshi> and getting frustrated with me for complaining about it
16:20 < andytoshi> then async/await will be another similar change, and stabilization of !
16:31 < elichai2> Saying that it's a new language and expected to have breaking changes and calling it a "systems language"
16:31 < elichai2> Yeah I think rust is trying to eat the cake and leave it full
16:37 < andytoshi> yeah
16:38 < dpc> <andytoshi "dpc: i'm still not following ..."> If there is no `msrv` depenency then such dependency is unprotected by this mechanism. It would require all direct dependencies to use it, I think.
16:43 < dpc> <elichai2 "Saying that it's a new language "> I think this is unfair. C and C++ just don't have dependencies management. :D
16:44 < dpc> Everything is slowass to roll there, hence the sense of "stability".
16:46 < dpc> Generally life is mess. An alive ecosystem will be a mess in state of flux. A dead language will be a mess. Disecting a dead person is much easier than operating on a living one.
16:47 < dpc> *a dead language will be ordered and static
16:47 < andytoshi> secp256k1 is an actively maintained library which supports ten-year old versions of gcc (which is also actively maintained)
16:49 < dpc> I really think that rust-bitcoin should just invest into making more recent rust compiler versions work, instead of trying to fight the ecosystem.
16:49 < andytoshi> recent rust compiler versions do work (usually - we have filed bugs against recent ones which have broken)
16:49 < andytoshi> the problem is that 8-month old compilers sometimes EOL with zero warning
16:50 < andytoshi> and complete denial that this is even a problem
16:50 < andytoshi> from people who are very influential in the rust ecosystem
16:51 < andytoshi> if i have to "fight the ecosystem" to not have multiple toolchain versions be released and EOL'd during a product cycle then i'm just not going to use that ecosystem
16:51 < dpc> Yeap. That sucks. :/ Got to go. I can rant on discord for you if you don't want to run JS in your browser.
16:52 < andytoshi> heh you're welcome to :) sadly i wan't see it
16:52 < andytoshi> have a good evening!
17:22 < elichai2> real_or_random: any updates on #90? do you still think it's a problem?
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21:10 < dpc> BTW. Ranting on r/rust doesn't require JS. Or does it?
21:11 < dpc> So my question is - if Rust had an easy and reliable way to bootstrap the current compiler version from mrust, would rust-bitcoin considered sticking with some much more recent version of the compiler?
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 22 00:00:48 2019