--- Day changed Sat Mar 10 2018 07:36 < maaku> Taek: yes, although paeno arithmetic is mainly useful in meta-math for demonstating that even the positive integers are not axiomatic, but can be constructed from a single element and the successor function 07:37 < maaku> kind of a nerdy comeback though since your original point I think stands in that '*' is computationally a repeated applicaiton operator in a way that '+' isn't 07:39 < maaku> also "meta-math" is something I madeup (before some math nerd points out that meta-math = math) 08:26 -!- CodeShark [sid126576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nuarunkeosuzxyze] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:26 -!- CodeShark [sid126576@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rvvsvsfvbbrdleas] has joined #secp256k1 10:09 < waxwing> i've got a book by chaitin called meta-math. iirc. 10:09 < waxwing> btw "peano" 10:10 -!- sipa [~pw@2001:19f0:ac01:2fb:5400:ff:fe5b:c3ff] has quit [Changing host] 10:10 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has joined #secp256k1 12:15 < maaku> Is there a written description of the secq curve and its relationship to secp somewhere? 12:18 < sipa> it's just the curve y^2 = x^3 + 7, with field size equal to secp's order 12:19 < sipa> (which then happens to have an order equal to 2^256 - 2^32 - 977, secp's field size) 12:23 < maaku> sipa: is there any sort of exploitable relationship between these two curves as a result? 12:24 < maaku> It's come up a couple of times in different protocols and its not clear to me what purpose it provides 12:24 < arubi> what's the generator for secq? 12:24 < arubi> can't seem to find the parameters 12:25 < maaku> arubi: it's not an actual standard curve, hence my questions 12:25 < maaku> it's a cute pun p -> q, secp -> secq 12:25 < arubi> ah I see 12:25 < arubi> oh :) 12:26 < sipa> maaku: if you implement bulletproofs over secp256k1, you only have integers mod the secp curve size available inside the proof 12:26 < sipa> so if you have freedom for choosing a curve to prove things over, that is very efficient to do inside the proof 12:26 < sipa> maaku: no real relationship between the curves 12:27 < sipa> it's just a curve we can efficiently ec arithmetic on inside zk proofs 12:29 < maaku> So if I'm understanding that right, secq has field size that fits in secp's curve size, so we can do secq math blinded inside a secp bulletproof? 12:30 < maaku> (Whereas conversely you couldn't do secp math inside a secq bulletproof) 12:30 < sipa> no, both 12:31 < sipa> if you implemented a libsecq, and bulletproofs over it, you could do efficient proofs with ec arithmetic inside over secp 12:31 < sipa> the field size and curve order are swapped between secp and secq 12:32 < sipa> it's not just "fits in"; it's exactly the modulus you need 12:33 < maaku> Ok I think I get it, thanks. 12:34 < maaku> You wouldn't need an efficient libsecq though, because that's just to generate the execution trace for which a secp proof is made, right? 12:35 < sipa> right 12:35 < sipa> for the pedersen hash benchmark inside the bulletproofs paper, the secq arithmetic is just implemented in sage 12:36 < sipa> and used to generate equations to prove 12:39 < sipa> but if you wanted to make efficient proofs using secp ec arithmetic, you would want bulletproofs implemented on an efficient secq though 13:08 < maaku> Right 16:00 -!- weez17 [~isaac@unaffiliated/weez17] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:00 -!- weez17 [~isaac@unaffiliated/weez17] has joined #secp256k1 18:36 -!- xinxi_ [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 18:56 -!- xinxi_ [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:12 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 19:17 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 19:34 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 19:39 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:43 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 19:48 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:10 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 20:14 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:17 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 20:22 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:30 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 20:35 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:45 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 20:50 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:56 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 21:00 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:11 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 21:16 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 21:22 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 21:27 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:42 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 21:47 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:57 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 22:02 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 22:11 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 22:15 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:23 -!- alexneudatchin [~alex@31.148.138.236] has joined #secp256k1 22:28 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 22:36 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 22:42 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 22:47 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 22:51 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 22:57 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 23:00 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 23:05 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:17 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 23:22 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 23:27 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 23:32 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1 23:41 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 23:45 -!- xinxi [~xinxi@175.156.124.27] has joined #secp256k1